Other/Mixed Step up

[Sam Goldner]

Well it’s true that you do have to step down but you are generally stepping down ‘backwards’, (i.e. the same way you stepped up), unless of course you step down on the opposite side of the box; in which case you would be mimicking the way you come down a hill.

Stepping down backwards has to eccentrically load the muscles used to step up. It’s the exact same motion as going up but in reverse; it’s the mirror image.

Up
Quads at the knee: shortening = concentric knee extension
Hamstrings at the hip: shortening = concentric hip extension
Glutes: shortening = concentric hip extension

Down
Quads at the knee: lengthening = resisting knee flexion/eccentric knee extension
Hamstrings at the hip: lengthening = resisting hip flexion/eccentric hip extension
Glutes: lengthening = resisting hip flexion/eccentric hip extension

No matter what there is an eccentric load if the setup used to train requires stepping down. Stepping down forwards vs backwards, the angle of trunk lean, etc., is just going to change which muscles are taking more of the eccentric load based on joint angles.


Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT

 

[offwidth]

@Sam Goldner
Maybe… but all I know after having done a few bazillion step-ups over the years that there is a huge difference between step-ups and hiking up a ‘hill’ and then back down. Huge.

 

[Sam Goldner]

@Sam Goldner
Maybe… but all I know after having done a few bazillion step-ups over the years that there is a huge difference between step-ups and hiking up a ‘hill’ and then back down. Huge.

No disagreement there.

Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT

 

[pet']

Hello,

What equipment are we talking about that that’s the case? If you do them on a stair machine, fine, but otherwise you need to come down off the box/step and if you do them on a hill/stairs you potentially need to go back down the way you came, so there’s still just as much eccentric loading as concentric loading in all those cases.

This is mentioned in post #71.

In addition to the pure "up / down" debate, there is something that step ups can not mimick: the terrain. Most of the time, tracks in the woods or mountains are not even. There are branches or roots or rocks, etc... All this plays a role in the way we put the feet in the floor. It requires ankle stability sideways. Same for the knees and hips (maybe to a lesser extent for the latter I admit).

That's why when I use step up, I always add some lateral or stability work, such as Cossack squats or even pure balance work, such as feet on a ball, etc...

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Sam Goldner]

Hello,


This is mentioned in post #71.

In addition to the pure "up / down" debate, there is something that step ups can not mimick: the terrain. Most of the time, tracks in the woods or mountains are not even. There are branches or roots or rocks, etc... All this plays a role in the way we put the feet in the floor. It requires ankle stability sideways. Same for the knees and hips (maybe to a lesser extent for the latter I admit).

That's why when I use step up, I always add some lateral or stability work, such as Cossack squats or even pure balance work, such as feet on a ball, etc...

Kind regards,

Pet'

What you wrote gave me a really good idea for additions into the step up itself (perhaps for rehab more than conditioning, but I see value in it for both):

Support foot (as opposed to stepping foot) can be on something minor lay unstable like a foam pad/pillow/cushion/folded blanket/etc. -> pad/etc. is moved to on top of box -> pad under support foot AND on top of box. Additionally, you can incorporate (with or without pad) steps where instead of facing directly at the box you are angled (could be anywhere from 1:00/11:00 to 3:00/9:00).

The primary purpose of the exercise is the conditioning, but if there’s a way to get secondary benefit without corrupting the primary goal, that would be ideal and would let you skip the need to do supplementary exercises. The pad/etc. shouldn’t really effect cadence, the degree of angle (time on a clock) could the bigger it is; it is something that would have to be experimented with.


Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT

 

[marvinthemartian]

I have played around with different heights and paces for at least 15 minutes at a time the last couple of days. It looks like 125 bpm hr to 135 bpm hr is about the max i can reach doing clean reps on the improvised platforms I used. I am sure with practice and a sturdier platform i could get a faster pace. But one thing i found interesting was that a 15bpm pace using a 50cm platform only gave me 10 bpm more hr than using a 28-29bpm pace on a 25cm platform despite getting me much sweatier.

Ps: I used a simple clamp on hr monitor for your finger we had lying around. No idea how accurate the readings are.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

I used a simple clamp on hr monitor for your finger we had lying around. No idea how accurate the readings are.

Distal Reading

The farther away the monitor is from the heart, the less accuarate it is.

Thus, something like measuring heart rate with a finger monitor, writs heart rate monitor or hand monitors on cardio equipment has some accuracy issues.

Chest Straps

The closer the montoitor (Proximal), the more accurate.

Chest Strap Monitors have around are 98% accurate; since they are located right on top of the heart.

Increasing Heart Rate With Step Ups

Performing Loaded Step Up will drive up heart rate; holding Dumbbells or having a Barbell on your back.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

Support foot (as opposed to stepping foot) can be on something minor lay unstable like a foam pad/pillow/cushion/folded blanket/etc

Statablizer Muscles

Performing an Unstable Movement places more of the work on the Stabilizer Muscles.

If that is the objective, it works.

The Downside

The downside is that performing Unstable Exercises minimizes the development of the Primary Muscle in the Movement.

They are underloaded.

Training Objective

The Training Objective is the determinate factor on how a Step Up, any exercise is performed.

 

[Sam Goldner]

Statablizer Muscles

Performing an Unstable Movement places more of the work on the Stabilizer Muscles.

If that is the objective, it works.

The Downside

The downside is that performing Unstable Exercises minimizes the development of the Primary Muscle in the Movement.

They are underloaded.

Training Objective

The Training Objective is the determinate factor on how a Step Up, any exercise is performed.

Your point is generally valid, but you only quoted a sliver of what I wrote and disregarded the qualifications I included, namely, this may be more for rehab, and I was responding to offwidth who most likely uses it as sport-specific conditioning.

In that case, if we are discussing using it for sport-specific conditioning, it is not actually under loading the primary movers. If we maintain the same load, same height, and same cadence it is logically impossible that we would all of a sudden be underloading the primary movers. All we did was add icing to the cake by now ADDITIONALLY loading the stabilizers and making it even more sport specific.

Even for your general point, though, there is a happy medium wherein out-of-gym function determines what level of stability/instability we want in our exercise. If we work the general point to its extremes for the sake demonstration, if our only goal in its purest sense is increasing load to the primary movers of the leg I’d strap my body in to a chair and do bilateral leg pressing so that all stabilization demands were removed. On the other extreme, if my only goal was increasing load to the stabilizers I’d do unilateral squats on my tiptoes on a stability ball on a kettlebell on a ladder on a slack line on a ship in the ocean during a storm while holding a squirming toddler who doesn’t want to take a bath and is covered in olive oil. When compared to the extremes, everyone under loads the prime movers AND the stabilizers; it’s just a matter of degrees. Yes, training objective is what determines where you fall on that spectrum, but we shouldn’t be afraid of sliding slightly towards the stabilizer side, just like rehab shouldn’t be afraid of sliding slightly towards the prime mover side.

With those considerations, tossing in the foam pad seems like a great option.

Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

it is not actually under loading the primary movers. If we maintain the same load, same height, and same cadence it is logically impossible that we would all of a sudden be underloading the primary movers. All we did was add icing to the cake by now ADDITIONALLY loading the stabilizers and making it even more sport specific.

Misinformation

Unstable Movement definitely underload the Primary Movers.

That is why individual can push or pull a greater load with a Leg Press, Bench Press Machine and perform a Smith Bench Pres, Squat.

That the Stabilizer Muscles are the Limiting Factor.

if our only goal in its purest sense is increasing load to the primary movers of the leg I’d strap my body in to a chair and do bilateral leg pressing so that all stabilization demands were removed.

This acknowledges the point that taking the stabilizer out of the equation produce a greater strength in the Primary Movers.

Previous Post

My previous post have noted that there needs be a degree of balance in the development of Stabilizer and Primary Muscles when it come to Free Weight Lifts, sports or activities.

Strength Transfer

An individual performing Squat has more carryover Strength to a Leg Press than someone going from Leg Press only training to performing Squats.

 

[Sam Goldner]

Misinformation

Unstable Movement definitely underload the Primary Movers.

That is why individual can push or pull a greater load with a Leg Press, Bench Press Machine and perform a Smith Bench Pres, Squat.

That the Stabilizer Muscles are the Limiting Factor.

This isn’t twitter; labeling my statement as misinformation does not automatically make it so. Again, you are responding to my specific point with a general statement.

We may be talking past each other. A more accurate way of writing what I believe we are both saying is: unstable movement CAN underload the primary movers if the stability demand limits the amount of load/volume/etc. you are attempting to perform. In the situation I was discussing, the volume/load/cadence all stayed the same even though we increased the stability demand. Therefore, in the situation I was discussing, the load of the primary movers was not impacted and therefore they were not underloaded, even though it is true that unstable movements CAN underload the primary movers.

This acknowledges the point that taking the stabilizer out of the equation produce a greater strength in the Primary Movers.

Correct, it can have that effect. That was never in question. See above.


We are also on the same page regarding the need for balancing the loading of prime movers versus stabilizers, as you wrote under the heading of ”Previous Post (sorry, couldn’t figure out how to get your post quoted here the way I wanted to).”


Thanks,
Sam Goldner, DPT

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

unstable movement CAN underload the primary movers if the stability demand limits the amount of load/volume/etc.

That is the point.

 

[Sam Goldner]

That is the point.

Copy. No disagreement.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Walking lunges are tough for many people - unweighted is a good place to start for many.

But if you were doing weighted burpees....

Just found this one

No Weights, Big Wheels

The Bodyweight Plan for Big Legs Drop your regular leg-day workout and try this for 8 weeks. If you can take the pain, your quads, hams, and glutes will explode. In a good way. Never in the history of picking s*** up and putting it down have we had more access to various squat bars and leg...

www.t-nation.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[watchnerd]

Hello,


Just found this one

No Weights, Big Wheels

The Bodyweight Plan for Big Legs Drop your regular leg-day workout and try this for 8 weeks. If you can take the pain, your quads, hams, and glutes will explode. In a good way. Never in the history of picking s*** up and putting it down have we had more access to various squat bars and leg...

www.t-nation.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

You just found out about walking lunges?

You've been missing out on some serious torture.

 

[pet']

Hello @watchnerd

No, I just find out this article eheh
However I remember an article of B. Maximus where he has a "challenge" of lunge walking 1 mile. That's some serious torture as well I gues

Bobby Maximus Will Crush Your Legs with Just One Move

If you can last the whole mile, your legs will be able to handle just about anything.

www.menshealth.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

No, I just find out this article eheh
However I remember an article of B. Maximus where he has a "challenge" of lunge walking 1 mile. That's some serious torture as well I gues

Bobby Maximus Will Crush Your Legs with Just One Move

If you can last the whole mile, your legs will be able to handle just about anything.

www.menshealth.com

"Lunging for distance is one of the smartest things..."

This is dependent on the trainng objective.

1) Forward Lunges

Many indvididuals drive the knee past the toes when performing Forward Lunges.

Doing so, increases the "Shear Force" (Torque) placed on the knees.

That may not be an issue for some. However, it can be an issue for others.

2) Backward Lunges

This type of Lunge ensures that the the shins remains at 90 degrees, perperpendicular to the floor.

Very little if any "Shear Force" is placed on the knees.

"It also builds you stronger, more efficient legs. Runners will be able to power up hills quicker. And lifters will notice more reps and quicker recovery.

Lunging for distance, such as a mile non-stop is Endurance Training rather than Strength Training.

Lunging for a mile provide a a minimal amount of Limit Strength development and virtually no increase in Power.

The only thing it does is increase your Endurance Capatity to reach the top of a hill.

Limit Strength, Power and Speed Training

Training these Strength Conponents is training develope the Type IIb/X "Super Fast" and Type iia Fast Twitch Muscle fiber with 1-5 Repetiotion per Set in the Phosphagen Energy System. A Set of Repetition that is maintained at approximately 10 Second is optimal.

Type IIa are continue to be innervated between 30 second to 2 minutes. However, as the time increased, Type IIa innervation drop quickly.

After about 2 minutes. the workload shift over to the Slow Type I Muscle, Endurance Muscle Fiber.

Take Home Message

1) Lunging for a mile is Endurance Training.

Virtually very little in Limit Strength, Power or Speed is developed.

2) Forward Lunges

There is a tendancy to drive the knee forward past the knees.

That isn't a problem for some individual, for other it is.

3) Backward Lunges

This maintains the knee in a neutral postition. The shin at a 90 degree angle, keeping in a neutral postion.

4) Lunging For A Mile

This is Endurance Training; effective at developing Slow Twitch Muscle Fiber and counter productive for develoing Limit Strength, Power and Speed

 

[Don Fairbanks]

Hello @watchnerd

No, I just find out this article eheh
However I remember an article of B. Maximus where he has a "challenge" of lunge walking 1 mile. That's some serious torture as well I gues

Bobby Maximus Will Crush Your Legs with Just One Move

If you can last the whole mile, your legs will be able to handle just about anything.

www.menshealth.com

Kind regards,

Pet'

I used to throw a 400m walking lunge in the rotation from time to time. Suppose I could add 100m or so per session and build up, but I might pass on this one.

 

[John K]

I used to throw a 400m walking lunge in the rotation from time to time. Suppose I could add 100m or so per session and build up, but I might pass on this one.

About 12 years or so ago a friend and I were training following a XFit spinoff called SealFit. One of the workouts was a 3 mile course where you'd alternate 1/4 mile running with 1/4 mile walking lunges. I dunno if we got stronger but it sure was brutal...

 

[Don Fairbanks]

About 12 years or so ago a friend and I were training following a XFit spinoff called SealFit. One of the workouts was a 3 mile course where you'd alternate 1/4 mile running with 1/4 mile walking lunges. I dunno if we got stronger but it sure was brutal...

I like it.
Obviously not a strength program, but a get smoked program.
IMO, a person that could complete it with some style could also do all kinds of other work.