Kettlebell 10,000 Swing Challenge - Review

[Geoinchains]

Hello All,

I know it's not a SF program, but since it's a kettlebell program written by Dan John, I thought it would be appropriate to put a review up in case anyone else is interested. I just completed the 10,000 Swing Challenge, and it was definitely a challenge. I did the original iteration of it, found here: The 10,000 Swing Kettlebell Workout | T NATION , and there is a newer version that includes some modifications to allow it to be easier but I stuck with the original as it aligned better with my goals. I did the 4 day per week version, and I missed 1 day due to illness so it took me 5 weeks + 1 day.

I have been doing S&S since late last year, and worked up to timeless simple before starting this challenge, but I felt my grip strength and aerobic capacity were both lacking hence why I wanted to do this training as it has a huge focus on both. In addition to the swings, you also add in strength moves, which I added bench press, chin-ups, seated barbell OHP, and barbell rows. So 30 reps of one move per session, plus 500 2HS with a 24kg kettlebell.

After day 1, I didn't know if I would be able to do this as I thought my heart and lungs were going to explode, but it reminded me so much of a hard BJJ rolling session that I knew it would be good for me. I kept going, and it did get easier of course. My grip strength started by failing during the sets of 50 for the first few sessions, then it was tough to hold on but I started to be able to finish the sets of 50, and finally by the last couple weeks I didn't really have to think about grip as it was a non-issue. I allowed my heart rate to drop to 135 between sets and recorded the time it took to finish as a way to measure progress, and I cut nearly 30% off my time in just 5 weeks while still keeping my HR lower throughout. My body composition changed, I have more energy, I feel stronger at all four strength moves I added (haven't tested anything else yet), and overall I can't think of anything that DIDN'T get better in 5 weeks.

Now, the numbers (the graphs include my warmup and post workout stretching, so times aren't accurate):

Workout 1: Weight: 173.8lbs Body Fat %: 18.4% Time to complete training: 49 Minutes

Workout 20: Weight: 174.8lbs Body Fat %: 15.9% Time to complete training: 33 Minutes, 50 seconds

I'm glad I spent the time and energy to do this challenge, and I'm glad that it's done because it was HARD! Overall, it was definitely worth it, and now on to the next!

Amazing review! Very interested to do the challenge myself! Was the grip worse (more fatigued) the days you did a strength pull?
The rationale is that when doing rows or chins forearms are heavily involved, whereas while bench pressing, not that much. What was your experience?

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Amazing review! Very interested to do the challenge myself! Was the grip worse (more fatigued) the days you did a strength pull?
The rationale is that when doing rows or chins forearms are heavily involved, whereas while bench pressing, not that much. What was your experience?

Actually, no, I don’t think it was worse on those days and my poor grip is what led me to do it in the first place. For me, the amount of grip required to do 3 chin ups or rows is not that taxing as it only lasts for about 10-15 seconds. When compared to sets of 25 and 50 swings, it is negligible.

I can say now that I have been doing a couple cycles of PTTP, that grip on deadlifts hurts my hands and grip in the 10,000 swings is much more work on my forearms. There seems to be a difference for me at least is maximum grip strength being generated from my hands and strength endurance coming more from the forearms so there isn’t as much crossover as I expected.

 

[knockdownfighter1]

Wow, if I want to die that sounds like a great way to do it! I suppose if I change the set structure around so it's like all sets of 20, I could MAYBE get through 1 day of that, but 1000 swings a day every day sounds EXTRA hard.

I've done this as well just as something "to do". My hands were absolutely destroyed after it. Was good for a mental challenge but I wouldn't say much for anything else.

 

[Geoinchains]

Actually, no, I don’t think it was worse on those days and my poor grip is what led me to do it in the first place. For me, the amount of grip required to do 3 chin ups or rows is not that taxing as it only lasts for about 10-15 seconds. When compared to sets of 25 and 50 swings, it is negligible.

I can say now that I have been doing a couple cycles of PTTP, that grip on deadlifts hurts my hands and grip in the 10,000 swings is much more work on my forearms. There seems to be a difference for me at least is maximum grip strength being generated from my hands and strength endurance coming more from the forearms so there isn’t as much crossover as I expected.

I understand your point about the pulls.
As for the second point about grip strength and endurance, I believe you are right. When I perform higher rep 2 arm swings my forearms burn easier, whereas when I perform heavy 1 arm swings for sets of 5-7 reps my hands get a greater toll

 

[watchnerd]

How do you measure your weight / bf %? no one noticed that he lost 2.5% BF while putting on 1 lbs!!??? Thats a huge gap in 20 days!

I can move the needle on "LBM" 4 lbs in 48 hours just from differences in glycogen storage vs depletion.

 

[BrianCF]

I have done two days of this so far. First day did Goblet Squats, Yesterday just the two hand swings. 5 ladders of 10, 15, 25, 50

 

[Steve Freides]

Now, the numbers (the graphs include my warmup and post workout stretching, so times aren't accurate):

Can you say more about what you did? 2-hand swings? What weight? How long were your sets? What would you say your RPE was most of the time? IOW, compare your swings to how you would have done them in S&S or Q&D, please.

Just curious, and thanks in advance.

-S-

 

[BJJ Shawn]

Can you say more about what you did? 2-hand swings? What weight? How long were your sets? What would you say your RPE was most of the time? IOW, compare your swings to how you would have done them in S&S or Q&D, please.

Just curious, and thanks in advance.

-S-

2 hand swings with 24kg bell. That is what Dan John recommends for this challenge, and since he can lift way more weight than me I didn't think I should go heavier and I'm glad I didn't. Sets were ladders of 10, 15, 25, and 50 reps x 5 so RPE only climbed above a 7 on the sets of 50, in which case it started above a 10 in the beginning of the challenge (I think I had to put it down by about 30 if I remember correctly, but this was from like 8 months ago so my memory could be wrong) and by the end of the challenge was down to about an 8.5. I did NOT use the kind of power I used in S&S or Q&D, I still used proper form but with just enough pop to make the bell float and no overspeed eccentric.

I found the 2hs to kill my grip first, and I actually found these long sets to be harder than 50 reps alternating hands with more power like I used to do in the original S&S every once in a while as a test. With no rest for my grip, it was brutal. However, I just recently have been doing sets of 50 again with a 24kg bell and have had no worries about my grip, so even after all this time the grip endurance has held up nicely.

 

[Kev]

It’s a great challenge. If I wasn’t mildly addicted to the giant I’d definitely run it again. I gravitated to his descending weight variation as it meant I could use a 20kg for the sets of 50. When I just used a 25kg the grip death was just hellish. If you run it again try the descending weight ladder. I went with
40kgx10
32kgx15
25kgx25
20kgx50
Good work man and it’s good to see someone doing it and getting the benefit from it.

 

[mvikred]

2 hand swings with 24kg bell. That is what Dan John recommends for this challenge, and since he can lift way more weight than me I didn't think I should go heavier and I'm glad I didn't. Sets were ladders of 10, 15, 25, and 50 reps x 5 so RPE only climbed above a 7 on the sets of 50, in which case it started above a 10 in the beginning of the challenge (I think I had to put it down by about 30 if I remember correctly, but this was from like 8 months ago so my memory could be wrong) and by the end of the challenge was down to about an 8.5. I did NOT use the kind of power I used in S&S or Q&D, I still used proper form but with just enough pop to make the bell float and no overspeed eccentric.

I found the 2hs to kill my grip first, and I actually found these long sets to be harder than 50 reps alternating hands with more power like I used to do in the original S&S every once in a while as a test. With no rest for my grip, it was brutal. However, I just recently have been doing sets of 50 again with a 24kg bell and have had no worries about my grip, so even after all this time the grip endurance has held up nicely.

Thanks for this as I was looking for this information. I agree that 24kg is sufficiently heavy if you are going for 50 rep sets. I don't think I've ever done 50 rep sets. Sounds insane.

Ive recently concluded Swing Hard 1.0 with a 32kg 1HSwings, and I found that to be able to get through the workout I had to modify my power production. I couldn't go as hard as S&S or Q&D as the volume was 200 reps per workout by the end of that program. I'm glad to see others also do this. as long as I get the bell to chest/shoulder height I thought it was ok. When I did try to do it with max power then I was burning myself out before the end of the last 20-30 reps.

Great results on your body comp too. I haven't really checked mine and visually I do see some changes but I dont see that the numbers have moved that much.

 

[mikhael]

@BJJ Shawn Now iterate one more time through the challenge with breathing. Simply, do a set of swings, then rest as long as you 10 breaths. You just keep swing-breath ratio 1:1.

 

[Kev]

I actually miss high rep swings in my training. That was my bread and butter for years.

 

[Ryan T]

I actually miss high rep swings in my training. That was my bread and butter for years.

Yeah and if you try to do it again, the AGT police will come after you.

In all seriousness, remember that AGT training is great for punching the clock, however 2-3x per year, you should peak for “something”. That’s the place where you can get down and dirty with the reps (depending on what you’re peaking for).

S&S also recommends a high rep, glycolytic stimulus every couple weeks. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Kev]

Yeah and if you try to do it again, the AGT police will come after you.

In all seriousness, remember that AGT training is great for punching the clock, however 2-3x per year, you should peak for “something”. That’s the place where you can get down and dirty with the reps (depending on what you’re peaking for).

S&S also recommends a high rep, glycolytic stimulus every couple weeks. So you can have your cake and eat it too.

I’m quite famously not a fan of the S+S. I don’t understand enough about all these A+A protocols either. I know there’s a talk test and I know about Maffetone and I’m not saying anything against them. I’m just a sledgehammer type of person. Lol 20 swings on the minute for 20 minutes was the swing protocol I was taught to survive and then attempt it with a heavier weight and heavier again and I always enjoyed that kind of stuff.

 

[Ryan T]

However, I just recently have been doing sets of 50 again with a 24kg bell and have had no worries about my grip, so even after all this time the grip endurance has held up nicely.

This is pretty neat. I would have figured it would diminished over time. Whatever you’re doing now must be maintaining it well.

 

[Ryan T]

I’m quite famously not a fan of the S+S.

Ha, you don’t have to be nor do you need to do it. It’s very much a plug and play situation, where you don’t really have to think about it and just do it.

I know there’s a talk test and I know about Maffetone and I’m not saying anything against them. I’m just a sledgehammer type of person. Lol 20 swings on the minute for 20 minutes was the swing protocol I was taught to survive and then attempt it with a heavier weight and heavier again and I always enjoyed that kind of stuff.

I’d rather you train than not for sure. If you are interested in A+A then I’ll simplify it down even further. You are ready for you next repeat when you feel at peace. You don’t have to measure HRs or try to pass talk tests and such. PM me if you want any help on this.

I haven’t read up on your log (if you have one), but I bet complex work would interest you. Hector Gutierrez, Jr. has a lot of free complex templates you can use. You’ll get a lot of work done in a short amount of time and it will be satisfying to someone who likes a sledgehammer.

 

[Kev]

Ha, you don’t have to be nor do you need to do it. It’s very much a plug and play situation, where you don’t really have to think about it and just do it.

I’d rather you train than not for sure. If you are interested in A+A then I’ll simplify it down even further. You are ready for you next repeat when you feel at peace. You don’t have to measure HRs or try to pass talk tests and such. PM me if you want any help on this.

I haven’t read up on your log (if you have one), but I bet complex work would interest you. Hector Gutierrez, Jr. has a lot of free complex templates you can use. You’ll get a lot of work done in a short amount of time and it will be satisfying to someone who likes a sledgehammer.

Thank you that’s very kind. I have done complexes since Istvan Javorek wrote about them in muscle and fitness in the 1990’s. I even asked him his thoughts about kettlebell complexes and judging by his answer he hadn’t access to decent kettlebells as “wrist impact and flexing concerned him”. He’s a lovely bloke and doesn’t get the recognition he deserves. I’ve save the Russian bear from Gutierrez site for future reference as I’m doing the giant for the foreseeable. I should try A+A at some point before I come down on any side of this, not that there are sides really. It’s just what works for people.

 

[Ryan T]

It’s just what works for people.

Yup and I’ll add that can change with time, age and life circumstances. Always good to keep an open mind, because 9/10 training in general is going to be better than not. Methods are important depending on your goals, but even a little thoughtfulness goes a long way. You’ve done your homework too.

 

[Kev]

Yup and I’ll add that can change with time, age and life circumstances. Always good to keep an open mind, because 9/10 training in general is going to be better than not. Methods are important depending on your goals, but even a little thoughtfulness goes a long way. You’ve done your homework too.

Just stuff I’ve picked up over the years. On here I actually learn how little I know.

 

[BJJ Shawn]

@BJJ Shawn Now iterate one more time through the challenge with breathing. Simply, do a set of swings, then rest as long as you 10 breaths. You just keep swing-breath ratio 1:1.

That may be doable, but keep in mind that between sets you’re also doing additional strength moves. In my case I chose to use mostly the barbell, and weight is a 5RM weight.