A quote from S&S Revised edition

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
What is people's comparison of advantages and disadvantages between double kettlebell work and barbell work ?
KBs have an advantage over barbells in ballistics for reps.

A lot of coaches think that doing barbell power cleans and snatches for reps / time (like CF) is bad programming.

KBs, on the other hand, are much more suitable, and the entire sport of GS is designed around this.

If you want to train power-endurance / conditioning, double KBs are a better tool than barbells.

Tonnage / time = work capacity
 
Last edited:

Anders

Level 5 Valued Member
I think we agree that kettlebells are superior to barbells in terms of power- endurance and conditioning.

I think what we might disagree about is whether double KB is better than single kettlebell in terms of power-endurance and conditioning.

I do however believe that double KB work can give good power-endurance AND more hypertrophy than single kettlebell work. But personally I would rather err on the side of thinking that I and many other are not yet ready for double KB work than to jump into double KB work too early.

I think it is more detrimental to rush things, than to progress too slowly.

I like to simplify everything and think that patience is a good principle in all areas of life.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
I think what we might disagree about is whether double KB is better than single kettlebell in terms of power-endurance and conditioning.
Well, this question is mostly about math and scalability.

Normalizing tonnage over time for sets / reps:

2 x 32 is very, very hard for most people for 10 x 10 sets / reps.

1 x 64 is practically impossible for most people for 10 x 10 sets / reps.


For work over 10 minutes, something that you can do is superior to something you cannot do.

But that's a bit extreme.


If I use myself as a more realistic example:

In 10 minutes, I can do more 2 x 24 reps than I can 1 x 48.

That means my work output is higher at 2 x 24 than it is at 1 x 48.

And thus my net training volume is higher.
 
Last edited:

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
But personally I would rather err on the side of thinking that I and many other are not yet ready for double KB work than to jump into double KB work too early.

I think it is more detrimental to rush things, than to progress too slowly.
No disagreement there.

A lot depends upon your training history, current endeavors, and existing adaptations.

I would never advocate it to someone who is relatively new to strength and conditioning training.
 

Timmer C

Level 5 Valued Member
Those strength training programs that would tell me to keep adding 5 pounds to my lifts every session (ie more than 700 pounds a year) create an standard for me that is both impossible and fuzzy. While the Simple standard of a 32kg TGU seems unlikely for me, at least I know where I am in relationship to the standard. I can do 24kg get ups and working at making these smooth and consistent is challenging me in a way that I can work with.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Those strength training programs that would tell me to keep adding 5 pounds to my lifts every session (ie more than 700 pounds a year) create an standard for me that is both impossible and fuzzy.
No offense, but I think you're misunderstanding linear progression novice programs and how long they're good for.

Nobody serious says you can just add 5 pounds to every session forever until you hit a 700 lb DL -- if they do, run away!

At some point, linear progression stalls, and you need to switch to other types of programming, typically periodized training.

By the way, kettlebells aren't immune to the need for periodization, at some point.

Pavel's progression from S&S has simple periodization built-in...it's just a bit under the covers.
 
Last edited:

barrak

Level 5 Valued Member
Yes, the KB wins on convenience, space, and portability.
...
...and on sidestepping some mobility limitations.

Speaking from personal experience; my upper cross syndrome puts barbell snatches out of reach, whereas I have no problem performing single and double kettlebell snatches. Deal breaker is; the unattainable necessary squat under load with the former vs. the hinge loading and exploding built in the latter.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
...and on sidestepping some mobility limitations.

Speaking from personal experience; my upper cross syndrome puts barbell snatches out of reach, whereas I have no problem performing single and double kettlebell snatches. Deal breaker is; the unattainable necessary squat under load with the former vs. the hinge loading and exploding built in the latter.
Very good point.

And one I empathize with given my left side torn labrum and supraspinatus.

Shoulder ergonomics of KBs are waaay better.

I can still BB snatch, and do so for competition, but I have to do insane amounts of accessory work to make it possible.

KB shoulder work of many kinds are a critical part of that.

I hear you on the legs -- for front squats I prefer barbells, and for deadlifts either barbells or trap bars.
 

the hansenator

Level 6 Valued Member
Yes, the KB wins on convenience, space, and portability.

Although bodyweight is even better, in those regards. And it's totally free.
Not in all cases. Like, to do wall handstand pushups, you need a wall to kick up against which I don't have. Or to do pullups, you need a pullup bar. Or, if you have the kbs and some floor space, you can do presses and rows.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
Not in all cases. Like, to do wall handstand pushups, you need a wall to kick up against which I don't have. Or to do pullups, you need a pullup bar. Or, if you have the kbs and some floor space, you can do presses and rows.
You have floor space, but don't have a wall?

I'm intrigued. ;)
 
Last edited:

WhatWouldHulkDo

Level 6 Valued Member
I never do barbell snatches for reps, nor will I ever, because of technique pollution.
This is a ways off the original topic, but I just want to point out what a good coaching point this is. Don't use skill work as conditioning. Skill work should be done fresh, with the goal of repeated flawless execution. I've seen a lot of coaches with the mindset that you have to "learn how to do it when you're tired," which I don't agree with. If anything, skill work should be sort of A+A style; do it perfectly, rest, do it perfectly again. Practice skills perfectly, the go do something else for conditioning.

For most folks, any sort of weightlifting is "something else".
 

the hansenator

Level 6 Valued Member
You have floor space, but don't have a wall?

I'm intrigued.
The walls in the basement are too short. There's only one section of wall upstairs that doesn't have stuff against it and also has enough space in front of it but my feet were making scuff marks so my wife asked me to stop doing that.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
The walls in the basement are too short. There's only one section of wall upstairs that doesn't have stuff against it and also has enough space in front of it but my feet were making scuff marks so my wife asked me to stop doing that.
Ahh, understandable.

But I was hoping you were going to say you lived a nomadic life and slept in a yurt.

;)
 

william bad butt

Level 6 Valued Member
But if you want high tonnage, why not just use a barbell ?

What is people's comparison of advantages and disadvantages between double kettlebell work and barbell work ?

My opinion:

I use all the modalities: barbell, kettlebell, bodyweight, dumbell, machines, and odd objects. They all are great. But that doesnt mean one cant be strong and healthy just choosing one of them. And, of course, one can accomplish everything with 1 modality, but it may not be the most efficient way to do so.

Here is my personal view on each one:

Barbell - It is best for absolute strength and mass. The barbell is the my primary modality. Specifically, the lower bar back squat, deadlift, and bench press (the powerlifts). I dont do these excersises because of my love for powerlifting. I have competed twice. I powerlift because I'm convinced it's the best way to get as strong as possible. This modality has had a lot of carryover to the others. For example, adding weight to my bench press has increased my kb press or swing or snatch bell size much more than when I specifically trained those lifts, exclusively.

Dumbell - The best option for progressive overload of unilateral grinds. I love using dumbells for good, old fashioned, high rep and low intensity hypertrophy work.

Kettlebell - My favorite and the most "fun" to perform. The kettlebell is probably one of the most versatile modalities. But where it shines, in my opinion, is: (1) Low financial and low skill, (2) Ballistic speed/power training, (3) The grip. For (1), I mean 1 kbell is versatile and can act as a whole workout. 1 kbell is not that expensive. Also, learning complicated full body Ballistic excersises is much simpler, and safer, than learning their counterparts in other modalities. (2) Speed training with swings and snatches is really important for athleticism. Being able to train heavy snatches and swings has so much carryover to other things, and it is difficult to replicate this (although not impossible) with other modalities. Also, there is the "conditioning" aspects of it as well. (3) The Grip. Kbells will accidentally buildup your forearms and hands. This has tremendous carry over to life. We interact with our physical environments primarily through our hands! If I was forced to choose 1 modality, it would probably be the kbell. One downside, and it is a big one, is the inability to train the lower body with heavy weights. Because of this, the kbell is inferior to barbells for absolute strength training.

Bodyweight - Obviously the most accessible. Not always intuitive, it can be the hardest to master, but also a great place to start for beginners. I do daily bodyweight excersises for my core training to ensure I never experience back pain again. McGill Big 3 for example. Pullups, pushups, bodyweight squats (goblet), and many mobility/stability excersises are part of my daily routine. For me, proper movement/stability where it counts plus core strength.

Machines - I like machines! They are new to me, only been using them a year or so. They are restorative after a heavy barbell session. They get my blood flowing, make joints feel lubricated. I love how they allow for a lot of volume, a ton of hypertrophy volume training, without having to demand much neural energy. What do I mean by that? There is so much of a mental component of the other modalities, I like that I can turn off my brain and just do some machine chest presses. It is very "punch the clock" for me. Machines, in parallel with dumbells, can build an impressive physique. I state this because there are some "swole" folks at the Planet Fitness I attend 1 day/week. I find that I really miss my weekly PF workout, now that we are in social isolation. However, I'm easily able to replace it with my kbells, bowflex adjustable dumbell, and heavy bands.

Odd Objects - Great for strength endurance, grip, and a lot of fun. They also build "grit", mental toughness, more so than a lot of other modalities. I use sandbags and farmers walks as Finishers. I also like weighted vests. For a true minimalist, I think doing some carries/squats/presses with heavy sandbags mixed with kbel swings/snatches would be a great combination.
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
My opinion:
Pretty close to my thoughts (except for the machines).

I lump clubs in with kettlebells, but for different plates of motion (e.g. cross body, over head from front to back).

I'm also becoming much more appreciative of some of the approaches that bodybuilding can bring when it comes to finishers and isolation accessories.

Throwing in burn out sets of light weight triceps extensions, after pressing, has added in hypertrophy that has helped my pressing strength.
 

william bad butt

Level 6 Valued Member
Pretty close to my thoughts (except for the machines).

I lump clubs in with kettlebells, but for different plates of motion (e.g. cross body, over head from front to back).

I'm also becoming much more appreciative of some of the approaches that bodybuilding can bring when it comes to finishers and isolation accessories.

Throwing in burn out sets of light weight triceps extensions, after pressing, has added in hypertrophy that has helped my pressing strength.
What are you differing thoughts on machines? Just curious. To me, they can be a nice addition (but not necessary, not currently using them). I ask because you then mention bodybuilding and isolation excersises.

It's funny. Long time ago, like 15 years or so, I got off the "fluff and buff" bodybuilding stuff. Found Pavel and RKC. Focused on 2 or 3 excersises and strength. Gave up bench pressing for many years, and became "functional". Even kind of looked down upon people using silly machines or bicep curls (not externally, but internally in my thoughts, which is just the same). No regrets, it worked well for me. Now that I'm stronger, older, more experienced, I'm re-introducing some of the "fluff and buff". More a spice or side dish. But There is a place for it. I'm now able to extract benefits from it that previously wasnt attainable. It's not the main ingredient, I realize. The key is not just doing it for the sake of doing it, but using these excersises to build up weaknesses in my other lifts or other goals.

It's a process. And I'm still learning. I'm fortunate to have good and smart people, here, at Strongfirst AND Brian Carroll to keep me going in the right direction.

Regards,

Eric
 

watchnerd

Level 6 Valued Member
What are you differing thoughts on machines? Just curious. To me, they can be a nice addition (but not necessary, not currently using them). I ask because you then mention bodybuilding and isolation excersises.
For aesthetic or rehab purposes, I think machines are fine.

But as a weight-class recreational athlete, I have to keep a sharp eye on functional hypertrophy vs aesthetic hypertrophy, lest I gain mass that bumps me up a weight class without making me a better lifter.

So this means any bodybuilding-ish hypertrophy isolation work has to do double-duty to make me more competitive.

I might do some isolation exercises that have some nice aesthetic benefits as a side effect, but mainly I try to ensure that the isolation exercise is operating through a range of motion, with similar grip, and while on my feet as much as possible*, to get maximum sport carry over.

Examples:

When I do triceps extensions, I do it standing on my feet, and with my shoulders and arms at the same width I use during a jerk.

When I do biceps curls, I use a pronated / reverse grip, because wrist / elbow relationship is closer at the start to a snatch, which helps strengthen the bicep to prevent elbow dislocation in a snatch.


It even applies to seeming minutiae like grip; as much as possible, I like my accessory work to use the same 28 mm diameter grip as IWF-certified competition barbells. My Eleiko trap bar has the same handle, and almost the same knurling, as my Eleiko comp bar. My Rogue pull up bar is 28.5" diameter. When I do bodyweight inverted rows, I hang from a 28 mm diameter barbell. Even my cheesy 'Convict' EZ curl bar and plastic shoulder dislocation warmup bar are 28 mm. This helps maximize carry over of grip for more exercises to barbell-specific grip that helps me with the lifts.

As for legs, if I want to work my hamstrings, for example, I'll use a Romanian Deadlift because the lower back position is the same as a pull. If I want to work my calves for some reason, I'll do power shrugs from a rack where I get up on my toes...because it's similar to the third pull.

Very few machines meet these kind of specific and focused needs.

The bodybuilding appreciation comment was more about their particular methods to hypertrophy in terms of intensity vs sets vs reps, as opposed to particular implements.


*abs are a major exception, and even here, my main anti-rotational ab exercise is standing Pallof press
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom