Kettlebell Aerobic kettlebell strategies

[Bret S.]

Kenneth Jay in his 'cardio code' explains it quite well and to a great degree his whole theory builds upon exactly that high heart rates do not equal cardiovascular improvement. With weights the higher they are and the more prolonged the isometric contraction is, the more the blood vessels get constricted. with squats, there is lots of tension isometrically in some muscles, other muscles move and in general there is lots of prolonged pressure in the abdomen. blood flow to the heart is constricted, the heart walls can not expand properly per se because of the tension and the reduced blood flow, the working squatting muscles pledge for oxygen and "waste deposit", and the heart has nothing else to do, to beat faster and faster against lots of tension. This makes the heart walls thicker long term and the wall grows outward and inward and the chamber actually gets smaller over time and the heart walls getting less pliable over time.

Jays VWC are protocols to use the cyclical nature of the snatch that has more of tense-relaxation cycles with relatively light weights. I used it years ago myself for two or three months. I liked it for some of the reasons mentioned (I remember the lowering of resting heart rate too, that was something I experienced with the first two six week "Lazy Endurance" swing protocols from Al also. They were every minute on the minute, and my heart rates climbed with prolonged sessions. I used 50kg in sets of five then. Lowering of resting heart rate I experienced too, when I rode with my racing bike the peaks and valeys in our uplands in spring to autumn 20-10 years ago)
I quitted VWC because to a great degree with always shredded hands as I use chalk almost every time I lift (a thing I would never question for myself), and in summer, you know…

I eventually got "Cardio Code" and habe expected something different than VWC. Different are the means as he explains: for optimal cardiovascular development you need to engage in traditional cardio events: row, bike, run, ski, swim. events with the least pressurization and fast tense-relaxation cycles where blood flow has the least obstruction, the heart can be filled to its capacity and blood can get to the capillaries (and build over time some) to supply the muscles with oxygen and remove "waste products". These activities yield with maximal heart rates maximal O2 consumption which can be measured. In his research Jay states that VWC comes close, but is not optimal in nthat regard.

Out of my scrappy memory Jay does kind of this: first, you have to establish your baseline of your current VO2 max. Wingate test for the bike, 2000m all out on the rower, Cooper 12min run test for run. According to these numbers he outlines specific determined interval protocols which are... I would consider hard to very hard intervals. So in effort it is in VWC tradition. His book is filled with science and references to it, where he summarizes them. My impression is, that this could be stuff for really advanced population. I am not. He is very big on rowing and running. Thus when running according to some protocols that is delicate, as all out sprinting, be it only for very short distance is cool, but only so long. Rowing, Skiing, Biking makes more sense to me here. And he advices constant retesting, to adapt the protocols accordingly.

Here I was kind of disappointed: as I was already into Al's "stuff" I expected data, research on all this aerobic base building paradigm. Sure Kenneth advises slow endurance work also, but when I remember correctly as a means to just a bit of recovery from his stuff. He seems to be about maximizing VO2 max as like in VWC with the means to get the hr to maximal heart rates via High Intensity Interval Training.

For me as a kind of unintentional long term practitioner it is to advanced, and I was already into A+A. In the past I loved and enjoyed S&S which attracted me to the simple and followable instructions. The effectiveness of a pull and a press, a grind and a ballistic I am enjoying still today. This led me eventually to SF.

In January 2016 I started my A+A journey in a group under Al's guidance. That is exactly what he did and does: he guides a bit here and there, and definitely when you ask. With A+A he gives a handful of guidelines which are not written in stone. Much room for autoregulation. What I do with my A+A work is to play with these guidelines, the frequency, number of repeats, number of reps, finding my pace with my aerobic work which feels right to me (mostly much lower than MAF). Al never said you have to do it this and exactly that, but knows that everyone plays more or less his or her own game. And if A+A works I can not definitely say I am still exploring, but I am pleasantly surprised, that I still snatch using more or less this as my workhorse. After 32 months doing it, it just seems sustainable to me. If it works I don't know, but it has surely some effects.

Thanks Harald for the detailed reply, one question that keeps popping up for me is in regard to blood occlusion and the intra-abdominal pressure of grinds and even snatches to some degree and how that plays into the adaptations of the CV system. I understand that it interferes with blood flow during the 10 second or so effort from the clamping down effect of grind efforts. In my mind I picture at the end of the 'set' flood gates opening and blood flowing freely from muscle to heart and the same aerobic processing and adaptations taking place from that point regardless of the initial stimulus. In other words the aerobic adaptations are taking place as you rest up for your next effort, not during the 'stimulus' of the set. Does this make sense?

I don't really seek an MVO2 improvement effect as I don't know what I would do with it.

I've seen the crazy good successes you've had with A+A, the results of Al's work speak for themselves. I like simple and I like effective. Do you ever feel the need to do high intensity work? I crave it sometimes as I've done glycolytic work for decades during karate practice.

Edit: Harald I know you addressed my question in your previous post but I've not quite made the connection on the difference yet. I suppose if somebody said 'it's due to the fill in blank mechanism' I could grasp the difference.

 

[Bret S.]

It is a truism that the plural of anecdote is not "data," but empirical observation is a key part of the scientific method, so science and practice are more intertwined than oppositional.

To Al's point, we can make observations about cause and effect and reach conclusions, even if the mechanism in between is a black box. There's that Taleb line (quoted by Pavel in S&S) about how explanations change, but experience remains the same. To a large degree, I don't care what goes on in the box, but that is not necessarily an unscientific attitude.

For instance, I conclude that OS is beneficial even though I am highly skeptical of Tim Anderson's explanation/theory of why (and I love Tim, BTW).

Some practice is developed on the basis of a theory about the mechanism of action, and some is more strictly based on empirical observation. Sometimes the theory comes first, and sometimes the theory has to catch up afterwards.

It's not either/or, hence my signature line.

@Bret S., keep on working, observing, and asking questions. YOU have a theory about training, based on knowledge and belief:

You are basing your practice on that theory, and you are observing the results as they occur. I don't think anyone is criticizing you or telling you to do otherwise.

You have described well what I think in terms of 'science' vs application. I tinker with concepts and don't get far into the weeds of technical explanations. I study daily but my interest pool spans many subjects so I look for 'bullet point' items, sometimes they jump off the page in these 'aha' moments, then I have to go test it. Simple for sure, not sophisticated, but lots of fun nonetheless.
I often think about what draws me to this kettlebell and fitness stuff, aside from the usual health reasons I have to say for me it's the fun of it.

 

[Bret S.]

Did a little reading... not sure it rises to the level of "literature" but is interesting and somewhat related.

Understanding Muscle Fiber Type

"It normally takes anywhere from .4-.6 seconds for the nervous system to call on all the available muscle motor units to contract. This is the same length of time it takes to demonstrate max strength or apply maximum force. However, it takes only .2 seconds to perform something like a vertical jump. So the main determining factor is how many of ALL the available muscle motor units one can get turned on in .2 seconds and not necessarily how much fast twitch fiber one has. Therefore, if one lacks fast twitch fiber but also has a very efficient nervous system capable of recruiting nearly all the FT fiber they do have, they will tend to have superior performance in comparison to someone with a less efficient nervous system and lots of fast twitch fiber."

This reference says that it takes slow-twitch 100 milliseconds to contract. So, in a super fast movement (ballistics), maybe they are not contributing much... Don't know if there's any way to quantify it.

In karate practice as you know there's board breaking to test power. There is also speed breaking which not only tests power but how fast you can deliver it.
I'm talking specifically about 'drop breaks' where you hold a few boards in one hand at arms length and drop the boards retracting the holding hand and reverse punching with the other. When doing a break like this there are no holders to offer resistance to applied force. In order to be successful the punch has to be so fast as to ram through the boards breaking them before the rebound of the force can catch up. In other words the middle of the boards are pushed so fast that the weight of the outer board has no chance to move in time so the boards flex beyond the breaking point.
To do this I would be surprised if elapsed time was more than 1/10th second. It must be the not so 'slow' fibers doing the work? Along with a highly tuned NS in play?

 

[Harald Motz]

I've seen the crazy good successes you've had with A+A, the results of Al's work speak for themselves. I like simple and I like effective. Do you ever feel the need to do high intensity work? I crave it sometimes as I've done glycolytic work for decades during karate practice.

What I am doing actually is High Intensity Training, as the weight/intensity for my A+A snatch repeat training is high.

There might be just be a few occasions when I have to go "hard" : the snatch test for certification or TSC. A very appealing concept I have back in my mind is what Pavel proposes in S&S, namely the all out swing session every two weeks or so. It could be a snatch test, or a 10min/12min run tes, done rarely. As I am just in a constant base building process and have my kind of results with it I have no desire to test myself constantly, I am an amateur and an amateur loves what he does.

 

[Bret S.]

I am an amateur and an amateur loves what he does

Indeed

Al mentioned somewhere you must be strong first before starting A+A, it seems you were that but also gained tremendous strength over the months and years on the program. I am truly fascinated with the whole thing, right now I'm earning my way to the starting line by gaining strength and shoulder durability.
I think that once I'm in a stable and working state doing heavy (for me) and consistent snatching via A+A I'll be on a nice, steady path/trajectory while continuing to gain both body durability and strength.
VWC is a stepping stone and helping me get there, although it's not the end game, not even close, but snatching is probably the most enjoyable exercise I've ever done.

 

[Tuebor]

As I read through this forum and see a want for science to back up practice I am reminded of something I heard Jordan Peterson say in one of his biblical series lectures.

I'm phrasing but the jist is... What came first the game or the rules? Tell children to play and they play and make the rules up as they go but none can tell you the rules when you stop them and ask what the rules are, yet all have fun. Little older and you have laws, laws are the rules everyone followed first till someone wrote them down and said this is law.

That's how the majority of training is, you try this and that and keep what works, something works long enough and someone comes along and explains why... but smart people invent stuff based on science alone and that often doesn't work. Practically practice works, trial and error works far better. V02 max has been proven as garbage yet has great science explaining it. Just my thoughts, carry on.

 

[offwidth]

V02 max has been proven as garbage

Interesting statement... would you care to elaborate?

 

[Bret S.]

V02 max has been proven as garbage yet has great science explaining it

I have no opinion on MVO2, as I stated earlier it's more of a side effect of what I'm doing. If I were to stumble into somehow improving it I'm not sure how I would measure it or have any practical use for it. I'm not attached to any outcome regarding MVO2 as it's not the reason I'm doing VWC.
I haven't heard of MVO2 being considered 'garbage' before. In what sense is it garbage?

 

[Tuebor]

Perhaps garbage wasnt the right but basing your performance on V02 alone is a poor predictor of performance, older men by and large have lower vo2 then younger yet may race better due to experience and higher aerobic tolerance. Same is true with men and women. Endurance speaking. Many climbers (know that is your field of expertise) who specialize in high altitude no mask training have piss poor vo2 max. Yet are studs in their respective fields.

That's not the basis of this thread and I am writing on a phone where pulling up direct examples is limited. I can write you out a more direct answer when I come out of the woodbine. Direct message me, it may he a week or two though.

 

[offwidth]

Agreed! And I figured that was what you were getting at; just seeking clarification of your point.

I too believe that basing performance solely on VO2 max is not prudent.
Likewise (and I'm amongst the minimum around here) I believe that it is mostly folly to think that an already trained individual can significantly increase their VO2 max by training.

But that being said I also don't believe in throwing out the baby with the bath water so to speak.

 

[Ryan T]

I honestly think you have a healthy curiosity and are not paralyzed by the analysis.

This is what I'm starting to discover. In most cases action is better than inaction.

Also the whole n=1 approach is a useful when applying current research to actual training. In some ways the collective and diverse experience of the users on this forum offers some crowd sourcing. No, variables are not controlled, but given a large enough sample size there's Eben fit from sharing info.

 

[Bret S.]

Today I tested the shoulder with some heavier A+A snatches doing warmups from 12k to 20k before starting. Then started with the 20k for 6 reps followed by 24k for 5 reps then 28k for 4-5 reps. Shoulder felt a bit loose but not bad. Will see how it feels tomorrow.

 

[Anna C]

Nice work there. HR very low, and recovers well.

I'm going to sound A+A nitpicky here, but just to illustrate a few more aspects of it...

The A+A snatch repeat is very different from VWC snatching -- although the snatch is fast and powerful, the repeat overall is a slower, heavier effort. With A+A you pause motionless in lockout rather than a quick turnaround. (Here's a video of one of my A+A sessions, the repeats only, 24kg which was really heavy for me at the time - thus the initial swing before the snatch, one option for trying to do the next heaviest bell for the snatch). It's one very heavy, powerful snatch, followed by the rest in the repeat, followed by active rest (walking, fast & loose) for the rest of the minute or minute and a half, whatever's right for full recovery of breathing, HR, other sensations. BTW what's the heaviest bell you've snatched? For example, if it's 32kg, then that's your A+A snatch bell. 20kg repeats aren't really A+A, even if you do a few more snatches and get the same HR response. Hope that makes sense...

 

[Bret S.]

Nice work there. HR very low, and recovers well.

I'm going to sound A+A nitpicky here, but just to illustrate a few more aspects of it...

The A+A snatch repeat is very different from VWC snatching -- although the snatch is fast and powerful, the repeat overall is a slower, heavier effort. With A+A you pause motionless in lockout rather than a quick turnaround. (Here's a video of one of my A+A sessions, the repeats only, 24kg which was really heavy for me at the time - thus the initial swing before the snatch, one option for trying to do the next heaviest bell for the snatch). It's one very heavy, powerful snatch, followed by the rest in the repeat, followed by active rest (walking, fast & loose) for the rest of the minute or minute and a half, whatever's right for full recovery of breathing, HR, other sensations. BTW what's the heaviest bell you've snatched? For example, if it's 32kg, then that's your A+A snatch bell. 20kg repeats aren't really A+A, even if you do a few more snatches and get the same HR response. Hope that makes sense...

Thanks Anna
You've hit upon the whole reason I've been doing VWC and the existence of this thread for that matter.
My shoulder has been slowly becoming more durable doing VWC, somehow the thousands of snatches are making it more 'sinewy' and able to withstand a pounding. I'm fortunate to have KJ's program available to me and I'm also thankful to @MikeTheBear for helping me get started. It was a completely 'gut' feeling to use the program as a springboard into A+A snatching.
My heaviest snatch bell is 32 (actually done some with 36 but won't chance it now) but I'm not there yet with shoulder durability. The last session was an experimental durability test. I'm happy to report the shoulder is feeling normal so far today.
I think I'm on the right path to sprinkle in some heavier snatches in a natural, organic progression toward my goal of A+A consistently. Meanwhile VWC and other methods blended in are having some positive effects.
Great snatching in the vid by the way

 

[Deleted member 5559]

Have any A+A protocols consisted of a migration of movements as the session transpires. For example, snatch sets, then jerk sets, followed by swing sets? If so, does it matter what order those movements occur and how the muscle fibers and energy systems are recruited?

 

[Anna C]

Have any A+A protocols consisted of a migration of movements as the session transpires. For example, snatch sets, then jerk sets, followed by swing sets? If so, does it matter what order those movements occur and how the muscle fibers and energy systems are recruited?

Good question. Has not been done, to my knowledge.

 

[Bret S.]

Have any A+A protocols consisted of a migration of movements as the session transpires. For example, snatch sets, then jerk sets, followed by swing sets? If so, does it matter what order those movements occur and how the muscle fibers and energy systems are recruited?

Nice idea Bro Mo, maybe I will steal it . Though I can't do jerks right now high pulls could be a nice transition move, there's no end to the possiblities of blending movements and aerobic/strength stuff together

 

[Bret S.]

Yesterday's VWC 16k x 8r x 40 sets contrasted with the day before, I was bummed to have the session interrupted on Thurs so I hit it again, HR was smoother on Fri session and I felt much better, possibly a stress related difference. When doing VWC you can't be interrupted as starting again never works.

 

[Bret S.]

Today was the first session of A+A snatches, first I did 10 repeats with 20k, then 10r with 24k, and finished with 6r with 28k. It felt good warming into the heavier weight slowly and the shoulder held up pretty well.


Rested a few minutes then did a 5 min AMRAP snatch test with 16k. I went non-stop at a medium pace switching hands every 10 reps, the last minute I accelerated the pace and ended up with 120 reps.


Then finished up with about 6 miles of LED walking.

I noticed the HR dropped during the 2nd half while perceived effort remained the same as recovery took effect.

 

[Bret S.]

Not going to make this a training log thread but I thought this was worth sharing.
A+A snatch session with 14 repeats x 5 reps, 8 repeats with 24k and 6r with 28k.
Today I wore the HRM but decided to go by feel and not look at the monitor, here is the result..