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Annoying form breakdown (Squat)

bluejeff said:
I am not a powerlifter, so disclaimer: this is almost totally an outsider's perspective. The powerlifting squat is low-bar (right?), which, to me, seems like it will necessarily make you use your back/hinge a bit more. The bar being lower on your back seems to mean to me that when you go to squat, you must hinge more, or else you would fall backward. It's just perplexing to me that people will load up that position and then wonder why it becomes the proverbial "squat-morning."

I'm not saying it's wrong or anything to lift that way; I get that PL has its own techniques for its own reasons. I guess it just seems weird to put yourself in a position that sort of demands a certain kind of movement, and then wonder why you have that movement. Am I just off-base here?
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Yeah kinda off base. Look at light weight female lifters or even male lifters. Many of them having a close stance, push the knees forward right from the start.
 
You inbetween high bar and low bar technique IMO.

You have a higher bar position and fighting for an upright torso but a stance that looks like a low bar stance.

I would recommend getting the bar a bit lower and working on a bit more low bar technique.
 
bluejeff said:
The powerlifting squat is low-bar (right?)
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It kinda depends on the lifter. Especially Raw lifting has a lot more variance. John Haack, arguably one of the greatest powerlifters of the current generation uses a high bar squat.

(I'm actually not sure if he retired from Powerlifting this year. I know he was dabbling in strongman for a hot minute.)
 
silveraw said:
It kinda depends on the lifter. Especially Raw lifting has a lot more variance. John Haack, arguably one of the greatest powerlifters of the current generation uses a high bar squat.

(I'm actually not sure if he retired from Powerlifting this year. I know he was dabbling in strongman for a hot minute.)
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He had came back in pwl. In his latest episode in Dave Tate table talk he talks about how all the strongman training improves his strength
 
Brett Jones said:
You inbetween high bar and low bar technique IMO.

You have a higher bar position and fighting for an upright torso but a stance that looks like a low bar stance.

I would recommend getting the bar a bit lower and working on a bit more low bar technique.
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Yeah you might be right. I've never even really paid attention to whether I was high bar, low bar or somewhere in between. Like literally never in my entire life. lol
 
metaldrummer said:
Yeah you might be right. I've never even really paid attention to whether I was high bar, low bar or somewhere in between. Like literally never in my entire life. lol
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Getting a coaching session with an StrongFirst Cerified SFL instructor might be a good idea.

The low bar technique will have more torso angle.
 
John K said:
Squat suits didn’t assist the knee opening, so less quads more hips let you load the suit more and squat more. This became “enshrined” in Simmons/Westside, which for a time dominated American powerlifting.

Then you have people like Wenning who came out of Westside and seem intent on demonizing quads and knee use cause … injury risks? Knees aren’t able to handle the weight? I’m really not sur
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(For the sake of discussion) it can really works for some

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Trần Văn, u93 with 315 kg x 2


 
Hung said:
He had came back in pwl. In his latest episode in Dave Tate table talk he talks about how all the strongman training improves his strength
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Oh good, I was worried he was going to hurt himself. Going from a more "static" strength sport like Powerlifting to one that requires moving under load can sometimes mess up people who have the strength to pick it up but not the strength to move with it.
 
I don't have a lot to add - I thought the first rep was a tad out of the groove backwards and the second went forward and you tried to correct it. I think more attention to just feeling the weight more evenly distributed throughout the foot would make a difference but you'll have to experiment and see.
John K said:
I think it stems from equipped powerlifting, Louie Simmons, and (currently) folks like Matt Wenning.

Squat suits didn’t assist the knee opening, so less quads more hips let you load the suit more and squat more. This became “enshrined” in Simmons/Westside, which for a time dominated American powerlifting.

Then you have people like Wenning who came out of Westside and seem intent on demonizing quads and knee use cause … injury risks? Knees aren’t able to handle the weight? I’m really not sure.
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I think there was a recent "Tabletalk" w. Dave talking to some WSers (I don't remember who) and the point was made that some of the stuff Louie promoted was Louie/advancedlifter-centric. The examples given (iirc): Louie (and WS) emphasized training the heck out of the tris and little attention to the pecs because Louie had tears and couldn't train pecs, but everyone came to WS already w. great pec development and didn't need a lot anyway. Louie had little in the way of quad development and hated quad training, so WS kinda followed suit. SO, all this to say that there was a confluence of factors (Louie, suits/geared PL, advanced lifters) that probably sent WS down the anti-quad-squat road. That said, there was some quad training so I don't know.
 
Your ascent looks pretty good. In contrast, your descent is much more upright. When these two things are true, sometimes allowing yourself to lean forward a bit more on the descent so that you arrive in the solid bottom position (great depth by the way ;) ) and then rise up the way you came down, balance and smooth form are easier to maintain.

I've got a few high bar back squat in this video compilation I made yesterday of recent weightlifting sessions.
 
bluejeff said:
"squat-morning."
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Squat-Morning

The issue with this type of Squat Weak Quads; which I have previously addressed.

Powerlifting Squat

While a Powerlifter Squats with a Low Bar Rack and Wide Stance place the workload on the Back and Hips, Good and Great Squatters do not perform a Squat-Morning.

Anthropometry

How a lifter is built play a huge role in the Technique used in exercise movements.

Tom Purvis

Purvis provide a great analysis the Technique used by lifter with different structures.

Squats Part 1: Fold-Ability and Proportions



Squats Part 2: Fold-Ability and Proportions



Bret Contreras goes into it, as well...

How Femur Length Affects Squat Mechanics

bretcontreras.com

How Femur Length Affects Squat Mechanics - Bret Contreras

Meet Maren and Brett, the two latest Glute Squad members. They are the same height, but their torso and femur proportions differ markedly. Maren has a longer torso and shorter...
bretcontreras.com bretcontreras.com

Meet Maren and Brett, the two latest Glute Squad members. They are the same height, but their torso and femur proportions differ markedly. Maren has a longer torso and shorter femurs, whereas Brett has a short torso and long femurs. See how much higher Brett’s hip joint center is compared to Maren’s?

2016-03-04 13.25.13


Maren can stay very upright, prefers high bar squats, and goes very deep.

1


Brett necessarily leans forward considerably, prefers low bar squats, and goes just below parallel.

1711537240262.png
 
Messed around with bar placement last session just with the bar and 85lbs... I'm gonna try to pay more attention to bar placement from now on so I'm not combining different techniques. lol I think this looks pretty good for low bar tho?...

1711709417038.jpeg
 
Low bar is going to be on the rear delts, below the spine of the scapulae. Probably 1.5-2 inches lower than what you have there.
 
Anna C said:
Low bar is going to be on the rear delts, below the spine of the scapulae. Probably 1.5-2 inches lower than what you have there.
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Maybe I'll just stick with what I've been using then. I think it might take me some getting used to anything lower than what's in the pic. Something I have wondered tho, does it have to be either high or low? Like is there an in between hybrid bar? lol I mean, everyone's bar positioning is going to be slightly different no? Idk just thinking out loud.
 
metaldrummer said:
Maybe I'll just stick with what I've been using then. I think it might take me some getting used to anything lower than what's in the pic. Something I have wondered tho, does it have to be either high or low? Like is there an in between hybrid bar? lol I mean, everyone's bar positioning is going to be slightly different no? Idk just thinking out loud.
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I just put it where it is comfy and stable. It is lower on the back so I guess low bar.
 
metaldrummer said:
Messed around with bar placement last session just with the bar and 85lbs... I'm gonna try to pay more attention to bar placement from now on so I'm not combining different techniques. lol I think this looks pretty good for low bar tho?...
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It's not low bar and it's not high bar. It's in-between. If it's comfortable and secure there, then it might be better for you. See what you think.

edit: my recent heavier sets, I've had the same bar placement as you.

I haven't tried to use a true low bar placement for probably 20 years and I'm not sure my shoulders can tolerate it anymore. BUT, I might give it a go tomorrow.
 
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