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Off-Topic Anyone seen this? Criticism of Pavel on Rogan by Bart Kay

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I have seen someone criticize Ed Coan's deadlift and Messi's dribble so I don't feel strange when someone criticizes again Pavel. Also, he has been attacked for many times including some people who had worked with him before.

Thanks for many good comments in this thread, from Kozuki, Anna and from other members.

In Pavel's interview with Joe, he has said something like this : "In training there is disagreement but you do your things I do my things ...it's kinda cool...not like nutrition..." I don't plan to change my training attitude to that..
 
Personally, I tend to mostly ignore physiology and look at training through a black box, stimulus and response lens.

I have a hard time critically evaluating physiological explanations because I don't have the background knowledge to do so. I can read studies in a list of references, but that's different from having a deep and broad base of background knowledge to provide enough context to think critically. And, BTW, that's NOT a backhanded slap at any non-scientist who does think and post about these things, just my own perspective.

I also have no direct way of observing or evaluating any physiological processes involved in training -- only subjective experience and empirical observation.

And I am not an elite competitor who needs every edge to optimize my performance against elite competition.

So to me these kinds of arguments about energy systems, lactate levels, mitochondria, and so forth are mostly like discussions of Christian theology. I suppose they're interesting and important to the people involved, but they don't concern me. I'm even less interested in evolutionary arguments that strike me as almost purely speculation.

As much as I often question or criticize StrongFirst orthodoxy and the blind adherence to it, I buy into a lot of the programming because I've tried it out and it works for my purposes. One of Pavel's frequent expressions is "There's more than one way to skin a cat." And in the original RKC book, Pavel quotes the Nietzche maxim, "I mistrust all systematizers and avoid them. The will to a system is a lack of integrity."

So I stumble around trying stuff out if it seems like it makes sense, I would enjoy it, and it fits the exigencies of my circumstances, and then see how it goes.

Of course, human nature being what it is, I often end up following the Dan John pattern of "if it works, I stop doing it." But that's a whole other issue...
 
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I agree that training harder than homeostasis is what causes adaptations to occur. If you want to run fast, run fast. If you want to lift heavy things, lift heavy things. If you want to work every day, work every day. The issue is that I cannot recover from hard training at the same frequency I used to.

Monitoring the SRA curve is critical and the magnitude of the stimulus and recovery reflects the magnitude of the adaptation. StrongFirst methods tend to favor lower magnitude and higher frequency. Dr. Kay advocates higher magnitude and lower frequency. Both are valid for the same reasons.

While we cannot isolate an energy system, we can limit the exposure to them through modulating the intensity and duration to favor the parts of the machine that get reinforced to greater and lesser degrees.

To not throw the baby out with the bath water, key takeaways from this video for me are:
  1. Challenge homeostasis
  2. Recover at an appropriate rate for the challenge
  3. Muscle mass is critical later in life and low intensity training favors reducing muscle mass.
  4. The body is smarter than us and has the capability to handle what we throw at it and none of that capability is worse or better than another, just different.
 
I remember Mike Prevost mentioning that he talked with Pavel in terms of the theory that underpins QD/SE. Mike is a smart guy and he was very impressed with Pavels’ command of the concepts to the point he mentioned that he was learning from Pavel. Craig Marker is another smart guy that I have huge respect for. I don’t have a huge interest in the bio chemistry side of exercise, but from what we know Pavels’ programmes work. That’s good enough for me.
 
This is a very interesting thread and I hope it continues.My plan personally is to see what works for me ,so maybe a 6 month experiment ( including blood labs ,ect) testing long slow steady training and strong endurance protocols and then 6 months of more HIT type training.I can tell you in July of last year I started running 3 times a week ,using nasal breathing as a guide ,and using the Delta 20 principle to determine run times( minimum of 30 minutes) .I stopped at the start of the new year cause I didn’t feel the benefits were outweighing the wear and tear.Personally for me I didn’t really notice much difference.( I did get better at the specific activity but noticed very little carry over)What I have noticed in the past using the programs S&S had some good adaptations, as well as when I was serious about Thai boxing the short intense burts of movement.I’m looking for the most efficient way to train as I don’t have a lot of extra time and energy to devote to training.
I would say my goals are health , wellness and staying strong and supple and staying healthy enough to continue martial arts.I’m not too interested in body composition ,I’ve always been lean by nature , and have no desire to compete in any athletic or physique competitions.
 
If I'm not mistaken, at 39:30 Bart is saying that one should *not* supercompensate, because they are losing the effect (accumulated fatigue sounds like his goal - the training stimulus). Accumulated fatigue should occur and by the 5th set one is maximally fatigued, then the session is over.

I'm a little skeptical myself on the whole building MT in fast fibres, but regardless of that aspect of physiology, in that particular segment Pavel seems to be discussing "repeat power" training (ie sprinting - complete rest before next repeat) while Bart is coming at it from the angle of accumulated fatigue (intervals), though he clearly thinks that complete rests are not important/contraindicated. I think it's clear that repeat training is only possible without accumulated fatigue, so I found his argument.
 
All this talk of the pros and cons of long slow distance is not particularly helpful when there isn't a set definition of what constitutes long slow distance.

Perhaps he mentions one in the video: a. I found the video unwatchable so if anyone posts his definition that would be awesome, b. I'm not just referring to in the context of this video.
 
Huge grain of salt here, I don't know when I'll have the time to watch a what, 40+ minute video of this...?

Hopefully I will have the will to watch the video at some point....although it sounds like something I will need a solid afternoon to digest....

But having read through the thread, I do have some thoughts.

This reminds me of a trendy arguing point in the nutrition world : what we are supposedly "evolved" to do "naturally."

It has been pointed out (I forget where or by who) that humans have no special physical characteristics that outdo any other animal except that they can out-endure other animals. This is known as persistence hunting: chase the animal until it tires out so you can kill it. If you look at people living off the land in a relatively hunter-gatherer fashion, where are their high intensity bursts? Surely they have them, but what are they? There have been anecdotes of anthropologists and the like trying to explain "exercise" to these types of people, who were baffled that you would do something that tired you out on purpose. Their lifestyle(s) made them fit. Why on earth would such people do anything akin to exhausting training like HIT when they could be attacked by crocodiles or lions or whatever?

Since the critique is centered around a Joe Rogan podcast, it reminds me of something Joe said about "what we're evolved to do naturally."

I'm paraphrasing heavily here, but it was something along the lines of "did we evolve to fly in airplanes? Did we evolve to send emails and stare at smartphones and use Twitter?"

My big point with this is that it seems a bit silly to pick apart someone's training methodologies claiming that "x is worse for you, and y is better because of science," because at the end of the day, what works is what works. AGT has given me better gains that anything else I was trying, and it clearly works to develop strength-endurance. I can't tolerate HIT very well due to a nervous system that gets fried easily. But some people can.

IMO the only reason anyone should be "debunking" other people in the fitness world is if they are promoting downright injurious or clearly unhealthy practices, or making absurd claims. So really, this guy should be criticizing fitness magazines that claim "30 days to massive arms," "motivational" folks like David Goggins* and whatnot, not people like Pavel who are attemping to make plans to keep people injury free AND make gains :)



*I like David Goggins, but I think he promotes a fast track to injuries and burnout....topic for another day...
 
Its going to take a long time in small doses to get through this, I might not ever make it to the end. Am not 5 minutes in and Bart Kay is already incorrect when he states that passive cardiac volume doesn't increase from LISS - as in the actual volume of the left ventricle and not just its ability to expand when filling.

This is why HIIT doesn't produce a decrease in resting heart rate but steady state does. Observed in many studies and anecdotally. I can't find a single picture of Bart or anyone he's trained either, or does he not actually train himself or others?
 
I loved the video! It was very interesting! I learned a lot!
I'm not doing this for pay, hahaha, so I'm just basing my summary on one viewing, but here is what I get from Dr. Kay:

  • Long steady state cardio training is bad for your health, in fact VERY bad for your health in the long term. Humans are not designed nor evolved for this.
  • Humans are designed for short, intense bursts.
  • Humans are designed to almost always have their hearts in a non-challenged state, not an elevated state. Thus, sitting at the computer all week is actually the healthy thing to do, with the exception of three 40 minute sessions, one every second day, of 5 sets of very hard busts of exercise.
  • Humans get fitter and healthier (in the ways that are related to exercise, obviously not speaking about diet or sleep here, just exercise) through working the hardest possible with the heaviest weight at the highest possible heart rate for brief spurts, i.e. by challenging ourselves.
  • Long "easy distance" steady-state cardio training will make muscles smaller and weaker, and basically weaken you overall - not a good thing!
  • Getting your heart rate up with heavy weight lifting is perfectly fine. What counts is the heart is pumping hard. So, whether it's by lifting a heavy weight slowly or sprinting as fast as possible, it doesn't matter as far as the heart is concerned. There are not "different types of cardio" - a hard pumping heart from exercise is a hard pumping heart, period.
  • Isometrics are BAD for you. "Do not plank" etc... I suppose then that the TGU would not be favoured by Dr. Kay as it is semi-isometric.
  • You can still get stronger over time with sub-maximal effort, but it will "take a long time".
The most effective way to train for overall health, and sport-specifically is:
  1. THREE sessions a week (every second day).
  2. The in-between day is critical for your body to build itself up stronger; you MUST REST every second day. He says. the "real training happens" on this resting day, so to speak, as your body rebuilds itself stronger in response to the challenge of the day before.
  3. Your training session should be no longer than 40 minutes.
  4. You should have FIVE short-ish bursts of full effort - if training for an event, then exactly specific to your event. (So, for judo, this would be 5 really hard judo matches!)
  5. Do NOT give your body time to fully recover before going onto the next set.
  6. Thus, the last set should feel like you can barely do it at all - I get the impression he is suggesting you won't be able to do as many reps or something like that. He seems almost dismissive of the last set, so this is why I interpret it like this.
He says all the talk of lactic acid is irrelevant, and that the burn we feel when exercising hard is just a signal to the brain of overall fatigue in the muscle.

My own reaction:

Dr. Kay,

Where are you getting that elevating your heart rate for long-ish periods of time exercising is a bad thing? This would mean going for a hike or long walk every day or two is terrible for me in the long term. I'm doomed then? Is not going for long walks something natural for humans and our animal ancestors over millions of years? So, walking around all day is going to kill us younger in life? This is a scary thought, and I don't quite understand if you are really telling us this. You might mean something a bit more nuanced, or maybe I'm just "slow" and am not getting what you are saying, sorry.

Maybe you are just saying that even if we _can_ walk for long periods of time, that we do not need to do it for our health, or that since it does not really count as real exercise, we are thus not actually getting proper exercise and thus we are not keeping healthy. Okay. Interesting. You certainly look fit to me, haha! You seem credible at least in this sense! Pavel has written me personally that S&S is perfectly decent "cardio", so Pavel would seem to agree with you here. (I hope I am not misconstruing Pavel's comments here. I think this is what he meant.)

My judo sessions are fairly intense but the actual "very hard work" is probably no more than 40 minutes of a class on average, I suppose. Kendo is a lot more demanding cardio-wise, I've found. But, my heart is kept elevated for hours at both. This is bad for me?

S&S (Pavel's "main programme") is all about reducing rest times to an appropriate amount before the next set, not by getting completely back to a "rested state". Pavel is not saying to start each next set totally fresh. Pavel's "talk test" is a simple way without using some kind of gadget to determine when would be a good time to start the next set _without_ getting too comfortable! Maybe a sports scientist would be able to calculate exact timings between sets or something, but who wants to recalculate some math every single time? Yikes! Pavel's research has determined that the talk test "does the trick". Although, maybe... just maybe this "talk test" method is indeed less efficient (and "too long" an interval) which might be why we do TEN sets instead of 5 in S&S. I definitely feel pretty "worked out" after an S&S session, but with something "left in the tank" for sure! Maybe it's more efficient to totally wipe yourself out for the sake of building strength faster. Maybe S&S is a slower, easier way of building strength. It being easier may be a good thing for a lot of us though! So it takes longer - so what? If it's done with less stress, less potential for injury, and therefore "so what?"

You never said why isometrics is bad. Seems too rigid to me generally, but sometimes having that rigidity is a good thing. I'd like more detail here.

"Calling out" Pavel for saying that such and such a Russian scientist "invented" plyometrics, because actually humans and other animals have been doing plyometrics naturally forever strikes me as a bit of a language trick. This Russian scientist presumably was the first to study it in some scientific way and maybe to give it a name. It's like calling out someone for saying that Bell "discovered" the telephone. But, I'm not going to base my assessment of your assessment of Pavel on the tone or on little slip-ups like this but on what can help me to arrive closer to the truth about exercise. I can get carried away too and mix in silly things with good things in my own arguments. We aren't all perfect creatures.

Conclusion:

Dr. Kay takes issue especially with Pavel's understanding of the chemistry involved in exercise. He seems very confident in his criticisms and gives an appearance of someone well versed in the science. I am ignorant of this science. Pavel has empirical evidence to prove his claims work. The empirical evidence is the only solid evidence we can have. The scientific evidence is certainly helpful, but it is always evolving, and at the end of the day it is the results that count. Whether I rest between sets of S&S because in my own mind it is to let my "lactic acid buildup" reduce down, or whether it's for some other chemical process that has nothing to do with lactic acid but in the end I get my desired results, materially speaking it mattereth not. The science of course matters too, but empirical evidence can be trusted more. In fact, the scientific method must end with empirical evidence and not left with suppositions only. I _do not_ get the impression that Dr. Kay knows much about Pavel's work outside of this one interview, and so his critique is limited to very little of Pavel's work and thought.

If I tried to explain the chemical reason for certain judo drills making you better at judo, I would fail miserably... but the drills would still make you better at judo. I know this from training and fighting in judo since 1988.
I dig your response- more than solid, less than sinister!
 
I'm confused too and perturbed.

Without knowing any more at the moment, I think that a 75 minute walk is not long enough to do damage. Pavel's advice to me was to walk "fast!" To my knowledge, Pavel knows all about the downsides to doing too much too-easy long-distance stuff. And is a brisk walk really "too easy"??? I'm going to say NO! I'd like some clarity from Dr. Kay or anyone on this point.

We had a good debate about the value of walking a few years ago on this forum, and when all the charts and graphs were laid out and the debate was over, the "take away" from it is that several hours (like 3 to 4 I think) a week are good for you but more than this is not doing anything for you. So, to add the tidbits of wisdom from Dr. Kay onto this, my current "guess" until I find out more is that while 4-ish hours of walking a week are good for you, and several more than this are not adding anything (so let's say 8 total), then something like 12 hours a week might start to be a bit counterproductive where you start losing muscle mass and stuff. This is just a working framework pseudo-hypothesis for now.

I don't actually think Dr. Kay is telling us not to go out for a few good walks a week necessarily, he may be just telling us not to go out for long-distance runs, and that an hour's walk is nothing compared to a good S&S-type session.

I do get the impression that Dr. Kay would like S&S if he knew what it was. It seems like it is nearly precisely what he is advocating. The 2.0 book suggests you do S&S every second day on average, and that you work pretty hard when you do it, the whole session taking between 30 and 40 minutes normally speaking.

And, I'll add the disclaimer that I have not been out for a lot of walks these past few months. S&S seems to be keeping me in good condition by itself mostly. Still, there are other benefits to walking - I suspect spinal alignment can get corrected, and other funny little things in the physiology with walking - the kinds of things that specialized biochemists are not going to notice but which chiropractors and coaches "on the ground" actually dealing with exercise in their face day to day are.

Someone telling me that walking several hours a week is bad for me had better have some pretty strong empirical proof. For right now, I'm a bit perturbed, but I'm going to go with my instincts and keep walking!!!
I'll say one thing about going for a walk, which i like to do at night either weighted or just as I am- it is meditative, lets off the pressures of the day, and as Clarence Bass would concur, give legs to your ideas. I always coffee home a better man after a good walk, at any speed, than when I left. As a composer l, a musician, and a writer, I come home brimming with a flow to my thoughts that I just cannot describe adequately.
 
I'll say one thing about going for a walk, which i like to do at night either weighted or just as I am- it is meditative, lets off the pressures of the day, and as Clarence Bass would concur, give legs to your ideas. I always coffee home a better man after a good walk, at any speed, than when I left. As a composer l, a musician, and a writer, I come home brimming with a flow to my thoughts that I just cannot describe adequately.
Edit: i don't coffee home, ha! I just stroll home
 
Didn't get far in before searching and he seems keen on picking fights.
Different perspectives, different populations, not unlike pointless food wars. And as he is carnivore he lashes out at the vegans. I'm right, you're wrong bollocks.
Pavel...and SF generally... absolutely accept different opinions and views with grace. It's a broad church.
Taking distance running....there are different approaches and everytime a coach advocates a certain way if that approach gains their athlete a Gold then it vindicates the training style. And there isn't one model. It's the right model for that athlete.
Sprint models are similar. All training models are....getting the right fit for that athletic goal for that particular athlete.
I apply a stress model to what I do. SF programming does that, built in.
As someone said before, it's an intensity, frequency thing with a stress variable. A partial differential equation.
Training isn't linear. The only constant is change.
Aside from the very complicated energy transfer mechanisms, we lead complicated and stressful lives.
Any training idea for whatever athlete has to factor that.
I train not unlike a lot of peeps here for most of the time, frequently and moderately. Other times I absolutely rage. Both are good.
Very high intensity, less frequently.
The latter is not at odds with the former and vice versa.
What's the issue?
 
The body adj


the body adjusts over time for the task set to it. If you look at various National level athletes you’ll notice theyre developed for their task. A long distance runner will have lean, light legs because the body has to move the damn things repeatedly. A sprinter can afford more mass to allow speed.

i don’t concur that long walks etc are bad for you. Experience says otherwise. However long steady efforts can create a huge stress demand on the body, spike cortisol and damage the body’s ability to repair. So a long walk isn’t bad, but you do a sunrise to sunset hike daily for a week + and feel ok? No you’ll be exhausted. Sometimes this is worthwhile for other goals though. Perhaps the comparison is better to completing an ultra event. Running is an easy analogy but I’ll use kayaking. After a 24 hour kayaking event I will be utterly destroyed. For a week plus. The stress demand is huge and it’s done nothing for my fitness by the end. What it has given me is the mental and physical toughness I am seeking, and to train for it gave me fitness the event didnt. A worthwhile trade off, in my opinion.
I`ve done full day long walks and I agree that they only hurt, not helped me.
 
Its going to take a long time in small doses to get through this, I might not ever make it to the end. Am not 5 minutes in and Bart Kay is already incorrect when he states that passive cardiac volume doesn't increase from LISS - as in the actual volume of the left ventricle and not just its ability to expand when filling.

This is why HIIT doesn't produce a decrease in resting heart rate but steady state does. Observed in many studies and anecdotally. I can't find a single picture of Bart or anyone he's trained either, or does he not actually train himself or others?
Yes, I noticed this mistake too. The effect on the heart of long steady state cardio versus HIIT or lifting heavy weights is different concerning which ventricles are adapting. So, getting one's heart rate up from doing heavy squats is indeed different from getting it up through walking for a while at a relatively brisk pace, and it's the long easy distance stuff that contributes to reduced resting heart rate, meaning it's pretty darn important for heart health!
 
I was disappointed that he never explained his objection to low intensity steady state cardio. I think it's well established that low intensity aerobic activity is good for health and mitochondrial development. And I believe it provides a good base for many other types of training.

For my view and maybe somewhat in agreement with the critique, I don't think acid is generally a problem either, so I would agree with the video there. I think the body can handle it and to some degree that part of AGT theory is a bit overblown. Just my opinion. However, I do think AGT training methods are very effective.
The problem is that AGT (A+A/QnD) isn't science-based. RSA studies (effort<10s, rest 20-45s) show some improvement in mitochondria, but far less than other interval protocols. Pavel's main theory, lactic acid "killing" mitochondria is a myth and was heavily debunked. The opposite is true: lactic acid (and not only a little) seems necessary to improve mitochondria as well as long-steady state cardio. For me, it's difficult to find a solid base in StrongEndurance. Neither sprinters (a lot more rest), neither endurance athlete (longer intervals) train like what is teached in StrongEndurance. And the scientist/coaches working with theses elite athletes are way more qualified than Pavel.
 
I, for one, don't listen to any podcasts.

This type of stuff doesn't interest me at all. Everyone has different opinion or method. It's like arguing over who is the best sensei.

I like simplicity, a great diet and a good workout. Don't overcomplicate.

I figured if there are 59 responses, I should throw my 2 nickels in :D
 
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