Asking for impossible advice - optimizing endurance and explosiveness

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
he said “there’s no such thing as overtraining.
Overtraining

Either you misunderstood him or he lacks knowledge regarding it.

Overtraining is a chronic condition that is produced when an individual continue to train in a fatigued state.

The longer an individual continue to train in a fatigued state, the longer it take to recovery. Also, the greater chance of injury.

Generally speaking, if an individual continues to trained in a fatigued state for 6 week, it going to take approximately 6 weeks to recovery.

Now let look at....

Overreaching

Overreaching is the prequal to Overtraining. Overreaching is acute Overtraining. That meaning that recovery occurs quickly, comparative to Overtraining.

Periodization Training

Periodization Training is a planned number of weeks in which training intensity is gradually increased. In the final week, an exercise program is pushed to the limit, as mean of increasing progress.

Once the final week of pushing the limit is achieved, a new Periodization Training Plan is set up. A new program with a light, easy load is followed. Each week the intensity is increased until the final week, where the intensity is pushed to the limit.

This type of Periodization Training Plan provides stress as a means of increase strength.

Then the new Periodization Training Plan with light, easy load, allows for recovery. Recovery is where strength is achieved.

"Wound Healing"

Research on this falls into Common Sense.

The greater the trauma to the body, the longer the Recovery Time required.

To reiterate, Overtraining produces a chronic effect, requiring more Recover Time.

Overreaching produces an acute effect; recovery occurs quickly. It is effective in achieving long term success in a well written and executed Periodization Training Program.

the world’s best train on the verge of injury.

Back To Overreaching

To reiterate, a well written and executed Periodization Training Program needs to be pushed the limit in the final week of training to elicit the greatest training effect.

In doing so, pushing the limit means that individual sometime risk crossing the line; as you stated being "On the verge of injury".

Autoregulation

One of the keys to ensuring the you don't cross the line comes from learning to recognize the signs and then stop.

Being able to recognize "The Signs" is learned over time,

It similar to...

Driving A Car

Overtime, when you see a red light ahead, you learn how much pressure to apply to the brakes to stop at the light.
 
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Starlord

Level 5 Valued Member
Two cents:

I forget what, but I saw something else on the forum recently which spurred the following train of thought:

Back when I was a follower of the Gymnasticbodies style of programming/training, I read a lot of Christopher Sommer's ideas on progressive overload. He was a fan of "steady state cycling," which, in essence, meant that you start with something that is pretty hard, and you keep doing the exact same volume/frequency/intensity until it becomes easy. Then you make a "jump" to a new intensity and repeat. Each jump, as I understand it can be at micro/meso levels, for example:

Adding reps once it becomes easy, then adding sets....
Followed by increasing the intensity after doing both of those....

Thus, it winds up being a really long form of periodization. The key is to allow oneself the periods where things feel easy between adding to a training variable. Sort of a "natural deload." Sort of...

Pavel has spoken of this type of training (I believe on the JRE podcast) saying that it delivers very solid, long-lasting gains, because the body has much more time to develop soft tissue and whatnot. In terms of gymnastics programming, this is important to avoid joint problems.

That was a long way of saying that "as long as you aren't constantly sore throughout your cycle, you will see progress." So, at least in theory, as long as the OP gets over that inital "soreness hump" within a week or two AT MOST of a new program/cycle, he should be okay. But if he is sore every week of the cycle, it will be too much.

A final word, each "cycle" of that style of training can be quite long, lasting several months. It's not something to be in a hurry during.
100% correct. He will be adding the New stimulus of squats and box jumps. If following my advice the days when he performs this he will also do his hardest runs.

So he will be very sore the first few weeks. However if he manages the other variables in his like (diet, sleep etc) his work capacity will grow.
 

Starlord

Level 5 Valued Member
Vague Reply

...with no substance or meaning of how you came to that conclusion.
OK.

I joined the British military when I was 16. So I have seen thousands of soldiers train conditioning, strength, hypertrophy and skills work within a given week.

Those that train through soreness and develop their work capacity became the best infanteers. Full stop.

People are often quick to refer to studies...Often these people have sub par results to demonstrate for their staunch beliefs.

I see this very often on other forums and sub reddits I am a part of.

Anecdotal observations from myself not enough?

Have you ever run a Boris Sheiko powerlifting program? You will be buried by the sheer volume and array of lifts you will do within a given training week. Boris Sheiko is one of the best powerliftinf coaches on the planet for raw and single ply powerlifters coaching Andrey Malanichev, Yuri Belkin, Kiril Sarychev and many more.

Perhaps another example? Louie Simmons' Westside Conjugate Method was used not only to produce the best multi ply powerlifters the world has ever seen, but also being used successfully by athletes of numerous different disciplines. From throwers to rugby players. That'll make you VERY sore.

Have you ever read speed trap? Ben Johnson used to wake up very sore post strength training and heavy sprint days.

Dwain Chambers also got incredibly sore post strength training and heavy sprint days too.

It would appear many of the best in the world who acheive some of the best feats in history get very sore during training.

There is a saying fighters at Team Rough House in Nottingham, England used to have. Train hard, fight easy.

We also used to have a saying. A gallon of sweat in training spares a gallon of blood I'm battle.

Or would you prefer some studies performed by "experienced strength trainees" despite the fact that they do not quantify what that actually means to them?
 

kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
Perhaps another example? Louie Simmons' Westside Conjugate Method was used not only to produce the best multi ply powerlifters the world has ever seen, but also being used successfully by athletes of numerous different disciplines. From throwers to rugby players. That'll make you VERY sore.
Westside Conjugate Method

I have employed with a version of this method for years in my training and with training others.

The only reason that it will make an individual sore is if it is incorrectly implemented.

Boris Sheiko powerlifting program

Sheiko

I am familiar with it. It is effective for individual who thrive on high volume training.

It isn't effective for individual are more responsive to higher intensity, lower volume training.

Those that train through soreness and develop their work capacity became the best infanteers.

Misinformation

Reputable research and empirical data have demonstrated that using soreness as a yardstick to determine the effectiveness of a training program is misleading.

Unfortunately, this myth continues to be perpetuated.

Train hard, fight easy.

Train Smart

Training hard certainly is part of the equation. However, it need to be part of a well written Periodization Training Program that incorporates a progressive increase in loading/intensity.

"experienced strength trainees" despite the fact that they do not quantif

Strength Training Research

All that money waisted on education for naught. :)

Most of the research is conducted by former athletes in the sport, such as: Dr Mike Stone (Olympic Lifter and former Coach Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs), Dr Gregg Haff (former Olympic LIfter), Dr Brad Schoenfeld, Dr Bret Contreras, Charles Poliquin, Chris Thibaudeau, Dr Jamie Timmons, etc.

Most of these research still train and work with athlete in the field.''

And that conclude this discussion exchange.
 

Starlord

Level 5 Valued Member
Westside Conjugate Method

I have employed with a version of this method for years in my training and with training others.

The only reason that it will make an individual sore is if it is incorrectly implemented.
This is an outright lie. Training close to muscular failure is a LARGE part of the WSBB conjugate method. With how often Louie Simmons advocates exercise rotatation (every 3 weeks for non advanced lifter and every week for advanced lifters) you will be sore.

Sheiko

I am familiar with it. It is effective for individual who thrive on high volume training.

It isn't effective for individual are more responsive to higher intensity, lower volume training.
Sheiko is effective for EVERYONE who has the mental toughness to push through and yield the benefits of it. Hence why strong first programming is based on sheiko style periodization.
Misinformation

Reputable research and empirical data have demonstrated that using soreness as a yardstick to determine the effectiveness of a training program is misleading.

Unfortunately, this myth continues to be perpetuated.
No one here said anything about using soreness as a metric of how good a program is. Except you.

I suggest rereading what has been posted.
Train Smart

Training hard certainly is part of the equation. However, it need to be part of a well written Periodization Training Program that incorporates a progressive increase in loading/intensity.
This is something we can both 100% agree on.

Strength Training Research

All that money waisted on education for naught. :)

Most of the research is conducted by former athletes in the sport, such as: Dr Mike Stone (Olympic Lifter and former Coach Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs), Dr Gregg Haff (former Olympic LIfter), Dr Brad Schoenfeld, Dr Bret Contreras, Charles Poliquin, Chris Thibaudeau, Dr Jamie Timmons, etc.

Most of these research still train and work with athlete in the field.''

And that conclude this discussion exchange.
It's all good stating names of researchers but none of these hold anything against people like...Boris Sheiko, Louie Simmons, Stan Efferding, Matt Wenning, Milos Sarcev, Charles Francis etc.

Real world results and research >>> this new wave of sub par research on quite frankly weak strength training subjects.

Now you mentioned money, that is important because investment drives innovation. But more doesn't always work out better, as you loosely referred to (in my mind, correct me if I am wrong) in previous posts.

When the US invested billions of $ investing in pens that worked in zero gravity conditions the Russians took pencils up with them...

...that is where we are with sports science research for the most part. The US are spending billions of $ developing zero gravity pens that do not work for a lot of the time...the Russians are taking pencils with them that have a 100% success rate.

Old USSR research is absolutely gold. Mainly because the anecdotal evidence is the basis of their research. They started off with the anecdote and then researched the anecdote.

Science has been decades behind the anecdotal. Science is still chasing the anecdotal. So much so that the best endocrinologists knowledge pales in comparisons to someone like Milos Sarcev. Brad Schoenfeld couldn't replicate the results of Louie Simmons, Boris Sheiko or Milos Sarcev even if he tried.

I don't have a problem with you. Just the opinion that soreness is necessarily a bad thing. New stimulus will create soreness. The body will adapt in time, given intelligent program in the gym and more importantly out the gym. As well as a working mans mindset to stick to the plan and execute it with accuracy.
 

bernieholliday

Level 1 Valued Member
Overtraining

Either you misunderstood him or he lacks knowledge regarding it.

Overtraining is a chronic condition that is produced when an individual continue to train in a fatigued state.

The longer an individual continue to train in a fatigued state, the longer it take to recovery. Also, the greater chance of injury.

Generally speaking, if an individual continues to trained in a fatigued state for 6 week, it going to take approximately 6 weeks to recovery.

Now let look at....

Overreaching

Overreaching is the prequal to Overtraining. Overreaching is acute Overtraining. That meaning that recovery occurs quickly, comparative to Overtraining.

Periodization Training

Periodization Training is a planned number of weeks in which training intensity is gradually increased. In the final week, an exercise program is pushed to the limit, as mean of increasing progress.

Once the final week of pushing the limit is achieved, a new Periodization Training Plan is set up. A new program with a light, easy load is followed. Each week the intensity is increased until the final week, where the intensity is pushed to the limit.

This type of Periodization Training Plan provides stress as a means of increase strength.

Then the new Periodization Training Plan with light, easy load, allows for recovery. Recovery is where strength is achieved.

"Wound Healing"

Research on this falls into Common Sense.

The greater the trauma to the body, the longer the Recovery Time required.

To reiterate, Overtraining produces a chronic effect, requiring more Recover Time.

Overreaching produces an acute effect; recovery occurs quickly. It is effective in achieving long term success in a well written and executed Periodization Training Program.



Back To Overreaching

To reiterate, a well written and executed Periodization Training Program needs to be pushed the limit in the final week of training to elicit the greatest training effect.

In doing so, pushing the limit means that individual sometime risk crossing the line; as you stated being "On the verge of injury".

Autoregulation

One of the keys to ensuring the you don't cross the line comes from learning to recognize the signs and then stop.

Being able to recognize "The Signs" is learned over time,

It similar to...

Driving A Car

Overtime, when you see a red light ahead, you learn how much pressure to apply to the brakes to stop at the light.
I hear you and I’m tracking fully with you. I appreciate the depth of response too! I returned to the source to ensure I quoted him properly. I did not. He actually said “Overtraining is a myth”. He shouldn’t lack knowledge regarding it - as he’s a professor of kinesiology. Within the context of this chapter from Sam Sheridan’s “The Fighter’s Mind”, I think it’s more that he’s stubborn-willed and making a point that to do extraordinary things, you can’t train in ordinary ways... most think they’re pushing too hard and need to back off when in his opinion they haven’t even begun to push hard enough yet. So, I’m guessing there’s a little hard-headed tongue-in-cheek to how he’s framing it in his conversation with Sheridan while also highlighting the profound durability and resiliency of the human body and its systems. It is a book on the psychology of fighting rather than the physiology of fighting.
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kennycro@@aol.com

Level 6 Valued Member
He actually said “Overtraining is a myth”. He shouldn’t lack knowledge regarding it - as he’s a professor of kinesiology.

Overtraining's A Fact

I am constantly amazed at the number of fairly well educated individual who come up with misinformation like this.

As I previously noted, a well written and executed Periodization Training Program need to at some point push the intensity to the limit in the final week of a training cycle.

However, chronic training hard while increasing lead to Overtraining.

Perform Your Own Experiment

Give chronic the "hard training, high volume" method a try and see how it works.
 

Whosonfirst

Level 7 Valued Member
There is a division between power and endurance certainly but it needn't be binary for generalism. It only really matters for specialism and where you want to aim, or the competition level you covet.

You can see this at a marathon event. A muscle bound strong guy will not get near an elite distance runner but can still eek out a good performance. My nephew runs a 2.45 marathon. Strong as an ox. Squash player. Former marine. Explosive and endurant.
For him to improve at marathons he needed to lose muscle mass and didn't want to be weaker. Something has to give, right?
And at some point. Where is that point critical for you?

For a lot of us a big GPP base can be pretty wide, edging into both power and endurance ends. The figurative see-saw is a nice analogy....

if at both ends of a see-saw there is a zone to sit on and a handle to hold on to...a GPP base spreads out from the middle but there is a limit to the length and spread. Get to the handles of both sides. If you shift into a seat at either end, the other end suffers. So to optimise your endurance, power suffers. To optimise power, endurance suffers. But it is not binary. It is ok to be pretty good at both and it is entirely possible physiologically.

You can't have it all but you can have most of it. Be a decathlete, rather than a specialist, a box to box midfielder (soccer) or, er, a volleyball player.

S&S, volleyball, easy runs and when the time comes, add some mileage to your running, head down, do the thing, finish.

As someone once said, performance is 90% mental the other half is physical.
That would be Yogi Berra.
 

bernieholliday

Level 1 Valued Member
Overtraining's A Fact

I am constantly amazed at the number of fairly well educated individual who come up with misinformation like this.

As I previously noted, a well written and executed Periodization Training Program need to at some point push the intensity to the limit in the final week of a training cycle.

However, chronic training hard while increasing lead to Overtraining.

Perform Your Own Experiment

Give chronic the "hard training, high volume" method a try and see how it works.
I think I’ve accidentally stumbled into that experiment in the past, and even the recent past. I can be better in putting-to-practice your previous share on the value of planned and intelligent acute overreaching as I close into my peaking target/event and knowing and listening to myself well enough to know when too long is too long in that overreaching state, and understanding when to backoff and reset the periodized plan For the next cycle. Thanks for the guidance 👍
 
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