Barbell Barbell overhead pressing; pro's and con's of ditching the rack

[watchnerd]

Here's how it pans out for me:

--Anything that it is a heavy enough clean to provide a training effect to improving my clean (e.g. >110 kg), is heavier than I can OHP.

--Anything I can OHP is too light to provide a training effect for my clean. It's cardio / endurance training at that point for my legs/back.

I do KB clean and press as well, dead stop, from the floor. They're good for practicing my press, but they're just conditioning for my lower body.

 

[watchnerd]

My opinion is that it does not really matter. With little work, it is easy to clean way more than you can press

+1

If your clean is limited to what you can press, you have a weak clean.

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

+1

If your clean is limited to what you can press, you have a weak clean.

Not even so much a 'weak' clean as a 'technically deficient' clean. Or possibly what you're calling a 'clean' just isn't one.

It'd be worth getting some coaching or drilling the movement so you can figure out how to do it without pulling in the bar with your arms: A clean certainly isn't a deadlift with a 'yank' at the top.

 

[Hardartery]

Thanks for replying. I think this is an interesting topic for sure. I'm in the 8th week of a plan where I'm cleaning the barbell before each set. Some plan variables have changed, but my press had stalled a bit in the rack so it will be interesting to see if/ how results change.

I'm also trying to understand potential crossover to/ with KB clean and press. For example in Return of the KB Pavel writes...

"Where you were recleaning between presses on most days in Enter the Kettlebell! - because you were learning to get tight - now you will be doing your presses back to back. This does not allow one to press as heavy, but works the muscles more thoroughly."

So is this interpreted to mean that also with the barbell clean you can get tighter and potentially press heavier? Does this also confirm your statement that cleans take some gas out of the tank that would otherwise be used to "work the muscles more thoroughly"?

I would guess that the difference between a single and reps is the driving factor behind this statement. I know that light cleans don't make a ton of difference, but when the weight moves up it certainly burns available glycogen before the press and also leaves me with a bit of blood pressure change. My BP drops once the clean is over, so I often take a breath or two there just to let things normalize. I have also found that doing 5 reps of clean every rep is a whole different world than clean once and press away. In contest (Strongman) it is a pronounced difference. Guys that get 10-15 reps with a single clean, get 2-4 reps when they have to clean every rep. I actually like to clean every rep with lower weight as a way to up my anaerobic conditioning, and what I can press by rep 5 is a lot different than what I would be capable of pressing on rep 1.

 

[watchnerd]

Not even so much a 'weak' clean as a 'technically deficient' clean. Or possibly what you're calling a 'clean' just isn't one.

It'd be worth getting some coaching or drilling the movement so you can figure out how to do it without pulling in the bar with your arms: A clean certainly isn't a deadlift with a 'yank' at the top.

Your coaches are nicer than mine were.

7 years ago, when I first started learning the O-lifts, and hadn't PC'ed (ugly) since college, I got demoted from group training with the Senior-class 15-35 year olds to go group train with the Youth (13-17 year olds) until my clean became that of an adult man.

Which was fair when you're dealing with multiple lifters sharing a bar, loading and unloading.

But it stung..

 

[watchnerd]

I actually like to clean every rep with lower weight as a way to up my anaerobic conditioning, and what I can press by rep 5 is a lot different than what I would be capable of pressing on rep 1.

When I want to do C&P for conditioning, I just use KBs for it.

 

[Hardartery]

When I want to do C&P for conditioning, I just use KBs for it.

I make no assumptions as to his available equipment, I'm going with his question being about using a barbell.

 

[Steve Freides]

So is this interpreted to mean that also with the barbell clean you can get tighter and potentially press heavier?

No. The magic of the clean helping the press when using a kettlebell comes from the fact that you clean directly into the rack position for the press. (I don't know of many folks who clean a barbell and catch it with locked knees.)

Does this also confirm your statement that cleans take some gas out of the tank that would otherwise be used to "work the muscles more thoroughly"?

Yes. I think that's what pretty much everyone has said - to work on improving your strength at the press, it's best to start from the rack.

But again, as has also been mentioned, a barbell C+P can be great movement for strength-endurance, conditioning, hypertrophy, and other goals.

-S-

 

[James Sullivan]

No. The magic of the clean helping the press when using a kettlebell comes from the fact that you clean directly into the rack position for the press. (I don't know of many folks who clean a barbell and catch it with locked knees.)



Yes. I think that's what pretty much everyone has said - to work on improving your strength at the press, it's best to start from the rack.

But again, as has also been mentioned, a barbell C+P can be great movement for strength-endurance, conditioning, hypertrophy, and other goals.

-S-

Thanks for posting this. I'll let everyone know how my next test goes.

 

[mikerobinson]

My trainer mixes it up for me. Sometimes off the rack. Then, as I didn't have rack when the gyms were closed, cleaning off the floor. Sometimes a clean for every rep. Sometimes, one clean for each set, then multiple OH presses. I realised how weak my clean was, and I think doing it off the rack sometimes and other times cleaning it off the floor as helped my progress and overall strength. Also think, with no proof, that the explosiveness of the clean has helped my deadlift too.

 

[James Sullivan]

Update: Still cleaning the barbell from the ground before overhead pressing. Just 1 clean to start each set. Programming had me working at my previous 90%1RM for three weeks. No detrimental effects from the clean over that time period. There has also been some additional development of my upper back and traps.

So far my experience has been that cleaning the barbell from the floor before each set has been a superior method for me (vs the rack) to provide better pre-pressing tension.

Again, what I'm calling a 'clean' is essentially a KB clean with a barbell. I'm setting my pressing grip while the barbell is on the floor, popping the bar up with hip extension then catching the bar in the rack position without bending my knees. Will be interesting to see what happens with this method as I get closer to my BW pressing goal.

 

[Hardartery]

Update: Still cleaning the barbell from the ground before overhead pressing. Just 1 clean to start each set. Programming had me working at my previous 90%1RM for three weeks. No detrimental effects from the clean over that time period. There has also been some additional development of my upper back and traps.

So far my experience has been that cleaning the barbell from the floor before each set has been a superior method for me (vs the rack) to provide better pre-pressing tension.

Again, what I'm calling a 'clean' is essentially a KB clean with a barbell. I'm setting my pressing grip while the barbell is on the floor, popping the bar up with hip extension then catching the bar in the rack position without bending my knees. Will be interesting to see what happens with this method as I get closer to my BW pressing goal.

That's called a Power Clean.

 

[James Sullivan]

That's called a Power Clean.

Ah! Thanks. I have no Oly experience... I though all of the barbell cleans were caught with at least some knee bend and using the 'clean grip'.

 

[Brawny Ben]

James,

I just tested my overhead press today and I lift similar to you. I was able to add 20# to my 1RM using this approach in roughly 6 weeks time using ROP ladders. I don’t see any reason to use a rack.

Ben

 

[Hardartery]

James,

I just tested my overhead press today and I lift similar to you. I was able to add 20# to my 1RM using this approach in roughly 6 weeks time using ROP ladders. I don’t see any reason to use a rack.

Ben

To save on energy expenditure on come days and focus on the actual press and press muscles. It also allows a little better recovery for the lower body from other lower focussed work. Big pressers absoulutely do plenty of work out of the rack, and t's not a coincidence. The conditioning carryover from the Cleans is nice though and should never be eliminated completely.

 

[Brawny Ben]

To save on energy expenditure on come days and focus on the actual press and press muscles. It also allows a little better recovery for the lower body from other lower focussed work. Big pressers absoulutely do plenty of work out of the rack, and t's not a coincidence. The conditioning carryover from the Cleans is nice though and should never be eliminated completely.

I'll amend my statement to say, "I don't think my training will suffer from lack of rack pressing."

 

[Chrisdavisjr]

That's called a Power Clean.

Hate to be a 'well actually...' guy but the clean caught with straight legs is more commonly known as a 'muscle clean'; A 'power clean' involves receiving the bar in a partial squat with the femurs either at or above parallel to the floor. Here's demonstration of a muscle clean from the Catalyst Athletics YouTube channel (well worth a look for learning about variations of the O lifts):

​

 

[Hardartery]

I am unsure about any strict definition anywhere, but as a guy that has lifted for a long time I can say that anything other than a full Clean is broadly referred to as a Power Clean. From locked legs to a slight dip. I have never heard anyone differentiate for a 'Muscle Clean", it has always seemed more like a regional variation of the name - I have seen exactly the same lift described using both terms with no arguments. There is also that horrific variation that they like to teach high school football players where they float the feet out to the sides for the catch. I would refer to is as a Power Clean and everyone would know what the lift basically was, albeit I would be obfuscating the horror of the actual technique. I hav always heard Muscle Snatch and Power Snatch equally used synonymously. I would like to know if there's an actual recognized refernce thoug, I have a few exercises that I don't know the real names of or if they have names.

 

[Anna C]

Yep I would agree with @Chrisdavisjr that the power clean has bent legs for the catch in the rack, but above parallel. The feet move from clean stance to squat stance. Same thing but catching with thighs below parallel would be a clean. Muscle clean would have straight legs and the feet don't move.

Catalyst Athletics has an awesome Exercise Library. All the barbell lift variations from an Oly Lifting POV...

 

[Hung]

I'll amend my statement to say, "I don't think my training will suffer from lack of rack pressing."

the rack provides a stable place so you can really wedge yourself into the bar and focus on other small details. That's important when you're a beginner.