Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
I found more carryover frome the full Zercher DL than the squat, I found it significantly better than any Good Morning variation.
Barbell Can Zercher Squats do it all?
- Thread starter Chase Hines
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Performing Deadlifts To Increase Strength
Let's re-address the issue of performing Deadlifts to increase Deadlift Strength.
The issue with this approach is that Technique is altered with this approach.
It ensures Poor Technique is developed and maintain.
Auxiliary Strength Training Exercises
The optimal method of increasing strength in the Deadlift, any movement, is to employ Auxilary Exercise that are smilar in nature to the movement.
Auxilary Exercise are essentially disposable; realiasticly rotatable exercise.
Auxiliary Exercise are rotated in and out of program over time.
Exercise Variety
Research on this has been posted multiple times on this site.
Varying Auxiliary Exercises have been shown to increase strength for athletes and increase size in Bodybuilder to a greater degree than constantly performing the same movement.
Auxiliary Exercises allow a lifter to minimize or to some degree override the sticking point in a movement.
An Example
One of the most effective metod for Conventional Deadlifter is...
Dr. Bret Contreras
Are All Hip Extension Exercises Created Equal? - Bret Contreras
Earlier this year I got a paper published in the SCJ titled, Are All Hip Extension Exercises Created Equal (click to download). I’m very proud of this paper and feel that it’s...
bretcontreras.com
This applies more so to Conventional Deadlifter than Sumo Dealifters.
1) 90 Degree Back/Hip Extension
The overload occurs at the Top Part of this exercise
This exercise will increase Top End Lockout Strength for Lifter who struggle in this part of the Conventionl Deadlift.
2) 45 Degree Back/Hip Extension
The overload occurs in the Middle Range of this exericse.
Buiding Strength in the Middle Range will help those who stall in the knee area of the Conventional Deadlift.
Hang Power Cleans
As with 45 Degree Back/Hip Extensions, what I found was the my sticking point shifted from just below my knees to just above my knees.
3) Good Morning
The Good Morning amounts to being a Standing Back/Hip Extension.
The overload occurs in the Bottom Range of this exercise.
Gravytrain
Level 5 Valued Member
I was with Pavel at a seminar and he said there is no reason for back squats or even front squats and the Zercher was the best of the bunch. He said it was safer and the easiest of all of them to learn.
I am now considering trying this once my current round of PL competitions is over.
Are you doing them from a rack or from the floor? My favorite way to do them, in the past, was one DL from the floor and few ZSQ from there, kind of like 1 clean and multiple presses.
-S-
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I don't really get the minimalism. Like, if you can't deadlift three times a week, why not deadlift once and zercher squat twice? Or do a deadlift every two weeks? Still, nothing wrong with the minimalism, we all train like we like to and no approach is without merit. I don't need to get it if you're the one doing it.
The zercher is indeed a great exercise and among the best choices for you, if not the best.
Antti
Level 10 Valued Member
I'm not looking for an argument but I'll just bring out an opposite experience. The zercher is something I really enjoy and which I developed to a relatively decent level, but I'm not sure if it ever did that much anything for my other lifts. The good morning and its variations, however, is about the best exercise around in my book. It works on my squat and deadlift like nothing else. I'm not surprised at all how it's such a staple at Westside. That said, Louie is also a big fan of the zercher. Individual differences, etc.
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
Great points.
Basically I feel like 3 weekly Z Squat sessions are as taxing on me as one weekly DL session. I like consistency and that’s what the Z Squat gives me.
Did I need to? I didn’t ask “Can Zercher Squats get my DL to 600” I just asked if it could replace them?
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
I’ve played around with it a bit. Haven’t given it much attention. The reps I have done have felt really nice.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
When I say "I'm guessing that if you are a natural DLer, then after you hit certain level of strength, you're going to need to do some (maybe not much, mind you) dedicated DL training to up your numbers.", I DON'T say you should be pounding away on the exercise like a doofus. Guys with levers like Ed Coan can get probably away with that - the rest of us can't. I thought I was being clear enough.
Not sure why you felt the need to respond to what I said with this.
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
Yea! Give it a run. It’s been really rewarding for me. I don’t plan on going away from it anytime soon.
The majority of my reps are from the rack. I do make a point to do one full cycle per session. More if time allows.
I’ve found that for me the first rep after pulling the bar to your thighs really zaps later squat reps so I don’t use this method all the time.
100% of my reps are to full depth with the bar resting on my thighs for a brief pause.
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
I’m 100% with this.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I totally disagree w. the "no reason" part of this, but DJ uses (or used to use) "potato sack squats" (very zercher-like) as part of an instructional sequence. I thought the idea had a lot of merit.
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
@Chase Hines one can make the Zercher work with more of a "hips back" vs a "hips down". Am I safe to assume you used a more 'hips back' approach? AKA more hinge than squat?
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
That’s correct. I’ve played with both but 95% of my practice falls into that 8 o‘clock position.
wespom9
Level 6 Valued Member
Very nice. from an LB perspective I find that position perfectly translates to the DL, Much less fatiguing with no grip which I would safely guess, along with a lowered system load to what you'd lift in the DL, allows you to train with that frequency.
I really like your approach. With the ZSq > DL, however, it seems you don't really have a "pull". The C&P is about the only one you'd get in your training. Clearly, however, it seems to be working for you.
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
Thanks!
Yea. I don’t really train a “pull” specific movement. I haven’t for awhile now & it hasn’t been as issue at all.
I do KB arm bars, rack carries & OH carries for shoulder health. Also mix in some TGU practice & some hanging.
I do try to mentally “pull” my presses down to rack which I believe to be helpful.
I dunno....as long as it works...it works.
It depends on one's goals. For general health and fitness purposes, I spent the better part of the last 20 years not squatting except for bodyweight Cossack squat and didn't feel I was any the worse for the lack of a traditional loaded squat. Everyone should squat - my squat, unloaded, is good, and if someone's isn't, then they should work on it, but that's as far as one needs to go unless there is a specific reason to do otherwise, IMO.
-S-
Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
No argument. It depends on the lifter. For my build, and my strengths and weaknesses, I got no carryover from GM's. Neither have I ever gotten anything from a Reverse Hyper. It depends on the individual. For me, it doesn't hit a weakness so it doesn't give me much bang for the buck. I am much more of a natural Deadlifter than a Squatter, and I am naturally good at things like Husafell Stone (Any stone event, really) and Stone Circle (Often called Conan's Wheel, even though it actually isn't). I suck at Overhead stuff and gas on a Medley. All my power is already in the hips and low back, so I don't get much from GM's. I also lift LESS with a belt on and can't do a clean at all if I'm wearing one. But a Squat suit does amazing things for me. So, no one should expect the same mileage as me from the same exercises.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
Maybe you should. At the first place you mentioned about your training and zercher increased your DL number. I gave you my thought about carryover is different from getting the benefit (hypertrophy, for instance. or grip strength. or deadlift is a different movement pattern). Then you answer that only real-life performance is important - if I and others know that from the first place, maybe our answers would be different. I start to think that you don't really want to discuss, you just want to find agreements from people with the same thought.
front squat and back squat are wonderful exercises for posture. High bar back squat, done in a similar way like weightlifter really forces you to open up your chest. Back squat is maybe the only squatting exercise done with the bar that can be loaded heavy and done with high rep => it's a great exercise for hypertrophy.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
Of course. And preferences. If Pavel meant there's no reason to back or front squat unless you want or need to, then I agree completely.
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