I understood what he meant. I’m not quite sure why some folks are giving him a hard time.
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Barbell Can Zercher Squats do it all?
- Thread starter Chase Hines
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Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
Dude I really don’t know where we got off on the wrong foot here. There’s been a bunch of great discussion that’s taken place here on this topic.
I didn’t start the question by asking anything about numbers.
You dove right into it & took it upon yourself to start educating me on the differences between driving up the numbers and actual the benefits the movement. Which was fine....I welcomed the input.
I then replied that I’m not concerned with numbers and I feel like you took offense to that or something because it didn’t align with your response or you felt like you wasted your time....I dunno.
Again, I never went down that road man.
Plenty of folks understood what I was getting at without over analyzing the whole deal.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
Well, I apologize if I make you feel "start educating me on the differences between driving up the numbers and actual the benefits the movement" ?
Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
It’s all good man. Sharing knowledge is what this whole thing is about.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Still Muddy
It appears you mean that Deadlift Stregnth Trainining need to be performed.
"You going to need to do some dedicateed DL training to up your numbers"...
Why? For what purpose?
Technique Training
I responed to clarify it for the reason that I stated above.
That while training an exercise to increase strength works, it come at the expense of developing Poor Technique.
This takes us back to the questions of: "Why" and "For What Purpose" of folloing a "Dedicated DL up his numbers"
Secondly, "How would that "Dedicated DL Trainng" program be written and executed.
Providing more information in those area is needed.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Squat Is An Okay Hyperterophy Exercise
Squats are a good Hyperterophy Exercise for the leg.
However, I would never classify them as great.
I've posted information on this before, so here it is again.
The Weak Link In The Chain
The weak link in the chain for the Squat is the back.
The lower back quickly fatigues and is overloaded long long before the legs are completely overloaded and trained.
"When The Back Say NO and The Legs Say GO"
Hollie Evette, a Nationally Rated Powerlifter, great Squatter and Coach) wrote this article, years ago.
Evette addressed the issue of the back giving out long before the legs are maximally overload and trained.
Evette went on to prescribe Leg Squat Exercise that minimized the back/core, placing more of the workload on the legs.
While Evette provides some good Leg Squat Exercise, other are a better option; such as these.
1) Belt Squats
This invoves placing a Belt Squat Belt (like the Spud Belt Squat Belt) around your waist, standing on two sturdy boxes and Squatting.
Doing so, places the workload on the Legs, minimizing the back loading/involvement.
2) Steps, Lunges or Bulgarian One Leg Squat
My personal preference is Step Ups. However, Lunges and Bulgarian Squat are just as effective.
3) Leg Press
This machine eliminates the Stablizer Muscles, which is the limiting factor when training the primary movers in a movement.
This allow a great overload to be place on the Legs; which ensure optimal Hyperterphy is obtained.
Leg Hypertrophy
I am not avocating that Squats be eliminated from a Hypertrophy Training Program.
I am simply stating that if Maximal Leg Hyperterphy is the objective, Leg Exercises that allow the legs to be completely overloaded need to be part of the program.
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
For exactly the same purpose you write about below.
Again, "dedicated DL training" does NOT mean sloppy training. OF COURSE goals matter. Training experience, injury history, levers, preferences, and level of strength matter. It all matters. I don't think I've said otherwise.
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Still Muddy
Again, your "Dedicated DL Training" is vague with no substance or meaning.
Since this dicusssion with you isn't going anywhere, it's time to terminate it.
the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
Is this kind of dependent on the context? If you're competing and your goal is to maximize a particular lift, I can totally see where this makes sense. But what if you're not competing and it doesn't matter how much you lift, just that the muscles get worked?
AyBu
Level 4 Valued Member
@Chase Hines : thank you for posting this. I had a lot of back pain recently doing military press + deadlift 3-4 times a week. I'm going back to BP/SQ/WPU. Do you think that Zercher Squat would be better than Back Squat? If someone has lower back pain?
Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
The Ying/Yang
The degree of Intensity (going to near failure of failure) infrequently elicits a positive effect. That is one of the objective in...
Periodization Training
Starting off and exercise with something light and easy.
Each week progressive increasing the load.
With the final week being pushed to near failure or to the limit
Once the final week of the Training Cycle is completed, a new lighter Training Cycle is begun; allowing for Active Recovery.
The Issue Issue With Free Weight Movements
To reiterate, one of the issue in pushing a Free Weight Movement to the near failure or failure is that with each repetition, Technique is altered.
The exercise is changed to something different than what you started off with; the muscle firing sequence changes. It become a completely differnt exercise.
When that occurs you end up training different muscle than the exercise was designed for.
The "Squat-Morning" (Squat-Good Morning) is a good example.
That mean the objective of working that leg is decreased, since the load is shifted to the back.
Due to the Torque of leaning forward, the load on the back is dramatically increased beyoned the bar weight.
Thus, the objective of Squatting for Leg Training is turned into a Back Exercise.
This occur when the the objective in a pulling/purshing Free Weight Movcement is pushed to the limit.
If the objective is to work a specific muscle or set of muscle to the limit, a more effective alternative is...
Machines
1) Elimation of Stablizer Muscle Invovement
Performing an exercise on a Machine places the workload on the primary muscle/muscle in the exercise.
2) Fixed "Bar Path"
The Machine ensure that the "Bar Path" is maintained in the movement.
The targed muscle/muscles can be pushed to the limit, overloaded.
Anotether alterntive is...
Scrape The Rack Exercise
This simulates a Smith Machine. It locks the Bar Path in, not allowing it to turn one exercise into another.
It also train the muscle slightly differently. The movement requires Vertical and some slightly Horizontal Force be applied in the exercise.
Below is a demonstration of some of the Scrape The Rack Exercise that can be performed.
This is the upside of Machines.
The downside is less Strength Development of the...
Stabilier Muscles
As we know, the Stabilizer Muscle are essentail in performing Free Weight Movements.
Performing Unstable or Slighly Unstable Exercise place more of the workload on them and less on the primary movers.
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Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I'll try to keep it civil Kenny. Again, if competitive DL numbers are the goal, and if he reaches a plateau with his DL numbers after having trained for the DL via zerchers, squats, good mornings and the like, then some more task specific training may be exactly what's needed. Volume, intensity, variants will likely differ as per the individual's needs and preferences. You can type as many one sentence paragraphs as you'd like, but I'm not wrong.Still Muddy
Again, your "Dedicated DL Training" is vague with no substance or meaning.
Since this dicusssion with you isn't going anywhere, it's time to terminate it.
The original poster wrote:
That's his point, and it's a fine point, and while we can discuss different goals, I think we can surmise that he's not a competing powerlifter and is just someone looking for efficient and effective strength training. (At least that's my read.) And not training the DL but having the DL go up - that's noteworthy, IMO.
We can discuss further, but I don't know that we've said much that hasn't been said already, namely that not deadlifting by more than one means has been shown to improve some people's deadlifts. Some people's deadlifts, not all people's, and we know that a competing powerlifter would typically include some DL training, the point being that DL training can, for some people, be minimized or even eliminated by using carefully chosen other exercises, e.g., Zercher SQ, GM, and others.
IOW, the OP reported a cool thing, and whether or not doing what he's done in your own training or that of your students makes sense is, of course, up to you. IOW, the right answer is, "it depends."
JMO, YMMV.
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That's his point, and it's a fine point, and while we can discuss different goals, I think we can surmise that he's not a competing powerlifter and is just someone looking for efficient and effective strength training. (At least that's my read.) And not training the DL but having the DL go up - that's noteworthy, IMO.
We can discuss further, but I don't know that we've said much that hasn't been said already, namely that not deadlifting by more than one means has been shown to improve some people's deadlifts. Some people's deadlifts, not all people's, and we know that a competing powerlifter would typically include some DL training, the point being that DL training can, for some people, be minimized or even eliminated by using carefully chosen other exercises, e.g., Zercher SQ, GM, and others.
IOW, the OP reported a cool thing, and whether or not doing what he's done in your own training or that of your students makes sense is, of course, up to you. IOW, the right answer is, "it depends."
JMO, YMMV.
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the hansenator
Level 6 Valued Member
Thanks for the quick reply. I'm still a little confused though. Considering the above example, why squat at all if you end up using different exercises to work the desired muscles? And couldn't the same argument be made for any non-machine exercise you end up doing?
Boris Bachmann
Level 8 Valued Member
I don't think anyone'd disagree with this Steve, but some of us (at least I) balk a little at the idea of one exercise "doing it all". I'm all for training economy and getting the most from the least, but the minimalist thing sometimes goes too far. Sometimes less isn't more, it's just less.
I agree w. you - the OP's point is a fine point and a cool thing indeed. It would be even cooler w. more background information and numbers. If it sounded like I was hating on the OP or Zerchers, that was not my intention.
@Boris Bachmann, indeed, more information could be helpful.
One of my personal examples is that I could do 2 pullups before I started deadlifting, and after 6 months, I could do 12 pullups with zero pullup training between. That's this same kind of example - deadlift and you might hit a new pullup PR. 12 pullups is nothing to sneeze at, although it wouldn't set any world records, it sure is dramatic progress on a thing without training the thing. And in my case, we can't say whether deadlifting is "enough" or "takes the place of ..." because we don't know what my goals are, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. I went on to do much better at pullups, and for that, I did train my pullups.
My point? I don't know if I have one ...
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One of my personal examples is that I could do 2 pullups before I started deadlifting, and after 6 months, I could do 12 pullups with zero pullup training between. That's this same kind of example - deadlift and you might hit a new pullup PR. 12 pullups is nothing to sneeze at, although it wouldn't set any world records, it sure is dramatic progress on a thing without training the thing. And in my case, we can't say whether deadlifting is "enough" or "takes the place of ..." because we don't know what my goals are, but that doesn't change the facts on the ground. I went on to do much better at pullups, and for that, I did train my pullups.
My point? I don't know if I have one ...
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Kenny Croxdale
Level 7 Valued Member
Good Question
It is a little confusing.
"Why Squat"
If you want to become proficient at Squatting, you need to Squat.
The Squat is a good leg exercise when it is preformed properly.
That means when Muscle Fatigue sets into the point of turning it into a different exercise, Stop.
Continuing, ensure Poor Technique is developed and reinforces.
Absolutely
Many a Flat Bench Press has been turned into a Decline Bench Press due the legs driving the butt up in the air.
A Standing Curl has been turned into a little bit of a Back Extension when a some "Body English" is used to get the last rep up by bending forward, then backward to generate more force production to assist to generating more momentum once the bar slow down.
Dom DelRosso
Level 4 Valued Member
When I was training to increase my deadlift on Rotation, I would deadlift fairly heavy with cluster singles on Friday, Zercher Squat fairly heavy on Monday, and do single leg work/swings on Wednesday. I found this let me deadlift heavy and overlap the pattern with the Zercher without burning myself out for the training itself.
100% I felt sturdier and stronger overall (I was doing a ton of heavy pressing, rows, and chins as well) and I highly credit the zercher with building my deadlift up. I finished with a 495 deadlift and a 315 zercher from the ground.
Now, with my snatching and swings I can walk into the gym and easily pull 405 without significant effort on a daily basis. So I guess take my opinion of the Zercher overlap with a grain of salt. Although I would include it for any barbell program I run again due to its GPP and body-toughening benefits.
100% I felt sturdier and stronger overall (I was doing a ton of heavy pressing, rows, and chins as well) and I highly credit the zercher with building my deadlift up. I finished with a 495 deadlift and a 315 zercher from the ground.
Now, with my snatching and swings I can walk into the gym and easily pull 405 without significant effort on a daily basis. So I guess take my opinion of the Zercher overlap with a grain of salt. Although I would include it for any barbell program I run again due to its GPP and body-toughening benefits.
It goes without saying that most powerlifters who low-bar squat find a lot of carryover to their deadlift, too.
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Chase Hines
Level 5 Valued Member
Your welcome! MP & DL is 3-4 times a week is intense!
Generally I’d say yes 100% BUT just like any movement you can always mess yourself up if you don’t practice perfect technique.
So as long as your medically good to go I’d recommend dialing in the technique before bumping up the volume or intensity.
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