I understood what he meant. I’m not quite sure why some folks are giving him a hard time.Maybe you should.
-S-
I understood what he meant. I’m not quite sure why some folks are giving him a hard time.Maybe you should.
Maybe you should. At the first place you mentioned about your training and zercher increased your DL number. I gave you my thought about carryover is different from getting the benefit (hypertrophy, for instance. or grip strength. or deadlift is a different movement pattern). Then you answer that only real-life performance is important - if I and others know that from the first place, maybe our answers would be different. I start to think that you don't really want to discuss, you just want to find agreements from people with the same thought.
Well, I apologize if I make you feel "start educating me on the differences between driving up the numbers and actual the benefits the movement" ?You dove right into it & took it upon yourself to start educating me on the differences between driving up the numbers and actual the benefits the movement. Which was fine....I welcomed the input.
I then replied that I’m not concerned with numbers and I feel like you took offense to that or something because it didn’t align with your response or you felt like you wasted your time....I dunno.
It’s all good man. Sharing knowledge is what this whole thing is about.Well, I apologize if I make you feel "start educating me on the differences between driving up the numbers and actual the benefits the movement" ?
Still Muddy"I'm guessing that if you are a natural DLer, then after you hit certain level of strength, you're going to need to do some (maybe not much, mind you) dedicated DL training to up your numbers.", the rest of us can't. I thought I was being clear enough.
Not sure why you felt the need to respond to what I said with this.
Back squat is maybe the only squatting exercise done with the bar that can be loaded heavy and done with high rep => it's a great exercise for hypertrophy.
For exactly the same purpose you write about below.Still Muddy
It appears you mean that Deadlift Stregnth Trainining need to be performed.
"You going to need to do some dedicateed DL training to up your numbers"...
Why? For what purpose?
Again, "dedicated DL training" does NOT mean sloppy training. OF COURSE goals matter. Training experience, injury history, levers, preferences, and level of strength matter. It all matters. I don't think I've said otherwise.Technique Training
I responed to clarify it for the reason that I stated above.
That while training an exercise to increase strength works, it come at the expense of developing Poor Technique.
This takes us back to the questions of: "Why" and "For What Purpose" of folloing a "Dedicated DL up his numbers"
Secondly, "How would that "Dedicated DL Trainng" program be written and executed.
Providing more information in those area is needed.
Still MuddyAgain, "dedicated DL training" does NOT mean sloppy training. OF COURSE goals matter.
Is this kind of dependent on the context? If you're competing and your goal is to maximize a particular lift, I can totally see where this makes sense. But what if you're not competing and it doesn't matter how much you lift, just that the muscles get worked?That while training an exercise to increase strength works, it come at the expense of developing Poor Technique.
The Ying/Yangwhat if you're not competing and it doesn't matter how much you lift, just that the muscles get worked?
I'll try to keep it civil Kenny. Again, if competitive DL numbers are the goal, and if he reaches a plateau with his DL numbers after having trained for the DL via zerchers, squats, good mornings and the like, then some more task specific training may be exactly what's needed. Volume, intensity, variants will likely differ as per the individual's needs and preferences. You can type as many one sentence paragraphs as you'd like, but I'm not wrong.Still Muddy
Again, your "Dedicated DL Training" is vague with no substance or meaning.
Since this dicusssion with you isn't going anywhere, it's time to terminate it.
I’ve deadlifted less than 5 times in the last 18 months but in each of those DL sessions I’ve PR’d.
Thanks for the quick reply. I'm still a little confused though. Considering the above example, why squat at all if you end up using different exercises to work the desired muscles? And couldn't the same argument be made for any non-machine exercise you end up doing?The Issue Issue With Free Weight Movements
To reiterate, one of the issue in pushing a Free Weight Movement to the near failure or failure is that with each repetition, Technique is altered.
The exercise is changed to something different than what you started off with; the muscle firing sequence changes. It become a completely differnt exercise.
When that occurs you end up training different muscle than the exercise was designed for.
The "Squat-Morning" (Squat-Good Morning) is a good example.
That mean the objective of working that leg is decreased, since the load is shifted to the back.
Due to the Torque of leaning forward, the load on the back is dramatically increased beyoned the bar weight.
Thus, the objective of Squatting for Leg Training is turned into a Back Exercise.
This occur when the the objective in a pulling/purshing Free Weight Movcement is pushed to the limit.
If the objective is to work a specific muscle or set of muscle to the limit, a more effective alternative is...
Machines
I don't think anyone'd disagree with this Steve, but some of us (at least I) balk a little at the idea of one exercise "doing it all". I'm all for training economy and getting the most from the least, but the minimalist thing sometimes goes too far. Sometimes less isn't more, it's just less.The original poster wrote:
That's his point, and it's a fine point, and while we can discuss different goals, I think we can surmise that he's not a competing powerlifter and is just someone looking for efficient and effective strength training. (At least that's my read.) And not training the DL but having the DL go up - that's noteworthy, IMO.
We can discuss further, but I don't know that we've said much that hasn't been said already, namely that not deadlifting by more than one means has been shown to improve some people's deadlifts. Some people's deadlifts, not all people's, and we know that a competing powerlifter would typically include some DL training, the point being that DL training can, for some people, be minimized or even eliminated by using carefully chosen other exercises, e.g., Zercher SQ, GM, and others.
IOW, the OP reported a cool thing, and whether or not doing what he's done in your own training or that of your students makes sense is, of course, up to you. IOW, the right answer is, "it depends."
JMO, YMMV.
-S-
Good QuestionConsidering the above example, why squat at all if you end up using different exercises to work the desired muscles?
And couldn't the same argument be made for any non-machine exercise you end up doing?
Your welcome! MP & DL is 3-4 times a week is intense!@Chase Hines : thank you for posting this. I had a lot of back pain recently doing military press + deadlift 3-4 times a week. I'm going back to BP/SQ/WPU. Do you think that Zercher Squat would be better than Back Squat? If someone has lower back pain?