Best way to hook a high school athlete on good movement and strength training, IMHO, is during their off-season. (Spoken as the father of two ex-high school athletes.)
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Kettlebell Carpal Tunnel Golf and Tennis Elbow Mega Thread
- Thread starter Benedictine Monk
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@Lew and @Benedictine Monk, I have 3 of the DVDs, Dynami (Kettlebells from the Center), Secrets of the Shoulder, and Indian Club Essentials. They are all excellent and full of great knowledge. I've picked up a few things from each of them that made them worth the purchase price.
Bill Been
Level 5 Valued Member
I always get vaguely bummed-out when people get elbow tendinitis because it's pretty good bet that nobody knows what's going to fix it. We have numerous examples of people resting it for very long periods of time, seeing the pain subside, and having it return at full intensity the moment they begin to train again. We have others who trained through it and had it subside on its own. Still others (not on this site) have made it better by first intentionally making it much, much worse, thereby causing the body to react profoundly to an acute injury rather than half heartedly reacting to a niggling, chronic one.
aussieluke
Level 4 Valued Member
How would they go about doing that Bill?
Paul Sellers
Level 5 Valued Member
By the time I nixed my gym membership, some three years ago, my forearms were well and truly screwed up. My left was the worst with severe pain and loss of strength and motor control of the hand when the arm was in certain positions. For instance, I would frequently drop anything heavier than a towel because i couldn't grip it.
I tried all sorts up to and including an expensive consult with the sports injury clinic at my local university (they thought it might be a partial rupture of the bicep distal tendon). My works occupational health department (I work for a large NHS acute Trust) treated with ultrasound and massage. I tried trigger point release therapy. I was almost at the point where i considered my lifting days over when I started S&S. It didn't happen overnight but I attribute near 100% improvement in my condition to the single handed swing. Why? I believe - and no, I have no objective evidence - that the issue in my forearms was due to an imbalance of strength caused by isolation exercises using machines. I was strong - in certain movements. After a lot of starkly honest reflection I realised I'd been lazy in my strength practice - I hadn't used my grip, relying on machines with foam padded handles to control the weight. I could move weight, but my grip was weak. Lifting straps used to support my grip during deadlifts didn't help either.
As the single handed swings improved my grip and my arms learned to operate as a unit rather than independent muscle groups, the problem receded.
Yeah, it was my fault - and S&S fixed it. I'm not advocating S&S as a fix for anyone else's problem - if you are in pain see a doc first - just sharing my story.
I tried all sorts up to and including an expensive consult with the sports injury clinic at my local university (they thought it might be a partial rupture of the bicep distal tendon). My works occupational health department (I work for a large NHS acute Trust) treated with ultrasound and massage. I tried trigger point release therapy. I was almost at the point where i considered my lifting days over when I started S&S. It didn't happen overnight but I attribute near 100% improvement in my condition to the single handed swing. Why? I believe - and no, I have no objective evidence - that the issue in my forearms was due to an imbalance of strength caused by isolation exercises using machines. I was strong - in certain movements. After a lot of starkly honest reflection I realised I'd been lazy in my strength practice - I hadn't used my grip, relying on machines with foam padded handles to control the weight. I could move weight, but my grip was weak. Lifting straps used to support my grip during deadlifts didn't help either.
As the single handed swings improved my grip and my arms learned to operate as a unit rather than independent muscle groups, the problem receded.
Yeah, it was my fault - and S&S fixed it. I'm not advocating S&S as a fix for anyone else's problem - if you are in pain see a doc first - just sharing my story.
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The classic issue with elbow problems in the swing, in my experience, is a bent elbow at the back. Fix that and many elbow problems will be solved.
It's not always easy to fix - all the parts are connected and sometimes it's something further up the chain, e.g., your shoulder won't do what you want and therefore your elbow compensates - but if the elbow is straight at the back, it shouldn't be bothered by swings.
NB: This is not medical advice, just based on my personal experience and what I've seen as a trainer.
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It's not always easy to fix - all the parts are connected and sometimes it's something further up the chain, e.g., your shoulder won't do what you want and therefore your elbow compensates - but if the elbow is straight at the back, it shouldn't be bothered by swings.
NB: This is not medical advice, just based on my personal experience and what I've seen as a trainer.
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Lew
Level 3 Valued Member
Anna,
When did you get your SFG1?
In doing just S&S right now, is any stretching I do kind of like adding unlimited vegetables to a diet?
beephsupreme
Level 5 Valued Member
I had a little something in my elbow a couple years back. Made it difficult to do curls and other similar movements - carrying heavy items like buckets or suitcases, thing like that. Power cleans were a problem, too, at least until I learned to take my arms out of the pull. When I started S&S, at first I felt the beginning same pain on 2H swings. Then I tried a 1H swing and something - not sure what - near my elbow shifted. I was worried that something shifted out of place so I cut the session short. The next day I realized my elbow didn't hurt anymore. I wonder if something shifted into its correct location. Not sure. Just glad it doesn't hurt anymore.
Benedictine Monk
Level 3 Valued Member
Forgot to mention:
My FMS results were "good" (I know, I know - its not a test!) but the one that was terribly wonky
(I believe 'spastic' is the technical term) was the left side hurdle step which made me look like I was
drunk and being electrocuted, though not necessarily in that order.
I am scheduled with a separate therapist to look at correctives (I am simply not competent to figure
out which exercises and what frequency to rehab it) and its very possible (my other detective work
not withstanding) that the lack of what I presume is rotational stability on my left side creates an issue
on one handed swings on my right that is the final step in the elbow pain train, as Terry Tate Kettlebell
Linebacker would say.
So, I will resume 2 hand swings this week and see if that helps. I should also mention that since starting
S&S in late summer, I also omit the final piece of the TGU on both sides (I don't go to standing or drop back
down from the lunge position).
Hat tip to Steve Freides for the suggestion. I will continue with Super Joints every morning and I do an OS style
warm up before each session.
I should also mention that its always been my left side that's wonky on the shoulder/rotator cuff and hip dating
back to 2010 when I damaged my radial nerve and spent about 6 months with next to no grip on my left side. So, I'm
in the peculiar position of my right side now being the side that is tightening up and causing me grief but a piece of the
puzzle is missing stability on my left side hidden in the hurdle step test.
I'm not sure it was the intent of S&S but the consistent dose and lack of moving parts makes diagnosis of problems
a lot easier because the random acts of variety aren't messing up what the body does during a week.
Cheers
My FMS results were "good" (I know, I know - its not a test!) but the one that was terribly wonky
(I believe 'spastic' is the technical term) was the left side hurdle step which made me look like I was
drunk and being electrocuted, though not necessarily in that order.
I am scheduled with a separate therapist to look at correctives (I am simply not competent to figure
out which exercises and what frequency to rehab it) and its very possible (my other detective work
not withstanding) that the lack of what I presume is rotational stability on my left side creates an issue
on one handed swings on my right that is the final step in the elbow pain train, as Terry Tate Kettlebell
Linebacker would say.
So, I will resume 2 hand swings this week and see if that helps. I should also mention that since starting
S&S in late summer, I also omit the final piece of the TGU on both sides (I don't go to standing or drop back
down from the lunge position).
Hat tip to Steve Freides for the suggestion. I will continue with Super Joints every morning and I do an OS style
warm up before each session.
I should also mention that its always been my left side that's wonky on the shoulder/rotator cuff and hip dating
back to 2010 when I damaged my radial nerve and spent about 6 months with next to no grip on my left side. So, I'm
in the peculiar position of my right side now being the side that is tightening up and causing me grief but a piece of the
puzzle is missing stability on my left side hidden in the hurdle step test.
I'm not sure it was the intent of S&S but the consistent dose and lack of moving parts makes diagnosis of problems
a lot easier because the random acts of variety aren't messing up what the body does during a week.
Cheers
Benedictine Monk
Level 3 Valued Member
I have all the Secrets series though as a non therapist I am able to trick out the exercises and fool myself into thinking I'm better than I am.
Very good info but definitely requires a 2nd set of experienced eyes to watch you go through the motions.
Interesting aside - I resumed Indian Clubs and the forearm issue showed up as an unfamiliar tightness on my right side while my formerly wonky left side appeared
to be all clear. I only do Indian Club movements #1 and #2 and only in the tall kneeling position.
Benedictine Monk
Level 3 Valued Member
Excellent advice, and I will have someone look at again. I think my main problem now is enough of my left side issues were cleaned up
that the remaining ones affect my right side, so suddenly might right side is acting up and its hard to get used to my previously well behaving
right side being the bad boy.
Lew,
To your first question: May 2015. Definitely one of the highlights of my year!
Second question: That is a very good question, and one I used to wonder myself. And I thank you very much for asking it. Seriously! I needed some motivation to study my NASM-CPT book, and you provided it today... I knocked out the chapter on "Flexibility Training Concepts" so that I could properly answer. So, the short answer: While most of us don't get enough (like vegetables) and more is better, it's not unlimited. So, no. Stretching can add a kind of stress, just like lifting. So you want to do it in moderation, at a level your body can handle and adapt to. And you also want to do stretches that enhances what you're doing, not take away from it. For example you wouldn't want to do the 90/90 stretch for the glutes right before swings, but you might want to stretch the hip flexors (as Steve F. pointed out to me) so the glutes can fully contract without constriction. As for evening or some other time of day, sure, more is better, but seek that point of the stretch where you feel some tension, stay there and breathe, for 30 seconds or more. Never to the point of pain. Think of it as a practice, like S&S. Attune to your body, make sure you're balanced and in good posture, find the stretch, and breathe. Oh, and get Pavel's "Relax into Stretch". Hope that helps.
Lew
Level 3 Valued Member
Anna C,
Congratulations of your SFG1!
I have seen others doing it in their 50's.
Would reaching Simple and then spending ~9 months preparing for it specifically get me there?
Secondly, the question about the stretching comes from my squat issue.
I'm working on developing a specific routine to address this.
S&S in the morning.
Stretch in the evening.
Thank you for your presence on the forum!!
Congratulations of your SFG1!
I have seen others doing it in their 50's.
Would reaching Simple and then spending ~9 months preparing for it specifically get me there?
Secondly, the question about the stretching comes from my squat issue.
I'm working on developing a specific routine to address this.
S&S in the morning.
Stretch in the evening.
Thank you for your presence on the forum!!
Gravytrain
Level 5 Valued Member
Adrc - adipose derived regenerative cells. Stem cell therapy. Had golfers elbow, fairly severe as well as other joint issues. Easy procedure, within weeks 100%. It's the future of medicine. Message me if you want more detail.
Lew
Level 3 Valued Member
I looked at and tried the 30 day squat challenge. Thank you for that suggestion. I have passed it on to others.
For me, I did it at night as I do S&S in the morning.
I found my morning squats weren't worth...squat, and my legs were too weak to do TGUs.
My current compromise is GTG with the 30 second description you give, about 4x a day.
I still have enough left for some TGUs in the morning and my squat depth is slowly increasing.
aussieluke
Level 4 Valued Member
Sorry to try and claw this back towards the original topic guys,
Can anyone who has/had golfer's elbow (medial epycondylitis) please let me know what lifts they have been able to train without bothering the elbow and still allowing them to heal and rehab?
Can anyone who has/had golfer's elbow (medial epycondylitis) please let me know what lifts they have been able to train without bothering the elbow and still allowing them to heal and rehab?
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
For me, anything with a straight arm -- swings, DLs, loaded carries, etc.
Pull ups, cleans and snatches where the big ones to avoid, and KB front squats could also be bothersome.
I got the greatest rehab results from working trigger points in my pecs. Stand at an outside corner between two walls (a doorway may also work) such that you can pin a lacrosse ball between your chest and the wall and extend the same side arm in front of you. Keep the ball pinned against your pec while you swing or pump your arm in front of you. Move the ball around to find different trigger points to work, but don't roll on the ball; keep it pinned in one spot and move your arm up and down.
Some other things that helped:
--This band pull apart series: Band Pull-Apart Super Series for Healthy Shoulders
--Windmills and overhead reverse lunges with a KB, paying careful attention to keeping the elbow COMPLETELY locked out, not ALMOST locked out, cramping the triceps and keeping the KB handle cocked thumb up/pinky down (with wrist straight or slightly goosenecked).
--Voodoo floss bands on the forearm while flexing and extending the wrist.
--Original Strength crawling.
Something that looks worth trying that I haven't tried personally:
--Tyler twists/reverse Tyler twists with a Theraband Flexbar
Something that felt good, but didn't really help:
--ArmAid (My problem seemed to originate higher up the chain. But if you decide to get an ArmAid, definitely get the large orange ball attachment).
Things that did NOT help:
--Wrist curls or reverse wrist curls.
--Leverage lifting
aussieluke
Level 4 Valued Member
Thanks Steve very helpful.
I too find straight arm stuff to be ok, BUT I am concerned about too much gripping possibly aggravating the problem.
I have found getups ok and load the joint in a different way, BUT the lowering and pressing out of the bell causes pain.
I was trying eccentric 3kg dumbbell wrist curls for a while with no benefit. Then I went to a physio who did some manual release work on my forearm and shoulder, and said the eccentrics may be too much, and suggested some isometric work to try - just gentle pressure lifting my palm up against a desk, and some stretching.
Then he did some more forearm work at the next session and some dry needling. Released a lot of tension from my forearm but the pain is still there. He gave me some further isometrics to do - same thing but with the wrist held in different ranges of flexion/extension. (is that what you meant by leverage lifting?)
Next session he worked on my tricep and some dry needling there. Felt good afterward but pain still there. He gave me very light (2kg) dumbbell partial ROM wrist curls and extensions to do, which don't seem to be doing anything.
After a week of these I have switched to the eccentric wrist curls with the 2kg hoping that now there is less tension in my forearm in general it may help more this time. No luck so far though. Am due another session this week but am wondering if I am wasting my time.
He has told me to continue doing whatever lifting I can without pain. I have actually taken up running again for about the last 5 weeks and really enjoying it, so want to add back some strength training mostly to support running for now.
Have tried doing S&S sessions with a light (16kg) bell, but the swings feel a bit like a waste of time at that weight, and the getups cause pain.
Have had more success just doing heavier two-hand swings with a 24kg and this morning tested a 32 and that was ok.
I've noticed pushups don't seem to bother it much if at all, but not sure if they are a good idea at the moment?
Have been very tempted to try a theraband flexbar from the start but thought i'd try the dumbbell eccentrics first as it seems basically the same but tiny dumbbells are much cheaper. The physio hasn't mentioned trying one yet and I keep forgetting to ask.
Might try voodoo flossing the forearm (made one out of an old bike inner tube) and see how that feels.
Have tried trigger point o the pecs with not much luck yet. Have used a tennis ball to fix a whole load of problems in the past, but no luck this time 'round. Will keep trying.
I too find straight arm stuff to be ok, BUT I am concerned about too much gripping possibly aggravating the problem.
I have found getups ok and load the joint in a different way, BUT the lowering and pressing out of the bell causes pain.
I was trying eccentric 3kg dumbbell wrist curls for a while with no benefit. Then I went to a physio who did some manual release work on my forearm and shoulder, and said the eccentrics may be too much, and suggested some isometric work to try - just gentle pressure lifting my palm up against a desk, and some stretching.
Then he did some more forearm work at the next session and some dry needling. Released a lot of tension from my forearm but the pain is still there. He gave me some further isometrics to do - same thing but with the wrist held in different ranges of flexion/extension. (is that what you meant by leverage lifting?)
Next session he worked on my tricep and some dry needling there. Felt good afterward but pain still there. He gave me very light (2kg) dumbbell partial ROM wrist curls and extensions to do, which don't seem to be doing anything.
After a week of these I have switched to the eccentric wrist curls with the 2kg hoping that now there is less tension in my forearm in general it may help more this time. No luck so far though. Am due another session this week but am wondering if I am wasting my time.
He has told me to continue doing whatever lifting I can without pain. I have actually taken up running again for about the last 5 weeks and really enjoying it, so want to add back some strength training mostly to support running for now.
Have tried doing S&S sessions with a light (16kg) bell, but the swings feel a bit like a waste of time at that weight, and the getups cause pain.
Have had more success just doing heavier two-hand swings with a 24kg and this morning tested a 32 and that was ok.
I've noticed pushups don't seem to bother it much if at all, but not sure if they are a good idea at the moment?
Have been very tempted to try a theraband flexbar from the start but thought i'd try the dumbbell eccentrics first as it seems basically the same but tiny dumbbells are much cheaper. The physio hasn't mentioned trying one yet and I keep forgetting to ask.
Might try voodoo flossing the forearm (made one out of an old bike inner tube) and see how that feels.
Have tried trigger point o the pecs with not much luck yet. Have used a tennis ball to fix a whole load of problems in the past, but no luck this time 'round. Will keep trying.
Steve W.
Level 8 Valued Member
By leverage lifting, I mean a variation of the DB eccentrics where you use a plate-loaded DB with a plate on one side. You either hold the handle below the weight or the loading area on the opposite side, which creates a longer lever arm (I actually have a bar from Ironmind made like this). You rest your forearm on a table with the hand over the edge. Start with the DB held vertically at 12:00 and lower to 3:00. Use the non-working hand to raise the weight back up to 12:00 and then lower in the other direction to 9:00. Rinse and repeat. The directions I saw (on a rock climbing website) advised that this would feel like it was aggravating the condition, but would eventually help. I only got the first part :-(.
If you are using a tennis ball for the pec work I described, I would not expect it to work, or at least not nearly as well as a hard lacrosse ball. Also, keeping the ball pinned in place and moving the arm is much more effective (in my experience) than any sort of rolling movement. But I think there is a range of factors that vary by individual, and there are a million (only a slight exaggeration) treatments that all claim to be the holy magic bullet cure, so it may take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right formula for you.
If you are using a tennis ball for the pec work I described, I would not expect it to work, or at least not nearly as well as a hard lacrosse ball. Also, keeping the ball pinned in place and moving the arm is much more effective (in my experience) than any sort of rolling movement. But I think there is a range of factors that vary by individual, and there are a million (only a slight exaggeration) treatments that all claim to be the holy magic bullet cure, so it may take a lot of trial and error to figure out the right formula for you.
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