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Kettlebell Current thoughts on exercise theory

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Walking fits this definition - it is the maximal force exerted vis a vis my bodyweight in the walking movement. Yes, this force is limited by the movement itself and by my bodyweight, but it is indeed the maximal amount called for in the action.

"the maximal amount called for in the action" isn't the definition of strength at all. You have to provide an external resistance, and see how much force can be produced against that resistance. This can be done with kettlebell, barbell, bodyweight, atlas stone, etc... but it's a maximal force.

The only way to improve strength is to progressively challenge your ability to produce force with a combination of volume (reps/sets) and intensity (weight relative to one's strength) programmed to force an adaptation. The only way I know if I've improved my strength is if I can move more weight in any particular movement. Not if I can move it more times, or more often, or with more quality, or even with more speed... Only this: can I move more weight, or produce more force against that resistance.

Now I suppose one could argue that if I see an improvement in a 5-rep-max (5RM) as opposed to a on one-rep-max (1RM), I've improved my strength. But in that case I would say the 5RM is a proxy for the 1RM. I'm drawing an inference about the maximal force I think I can produce. Drawing that out to 10,000 steps of walking isn't about strength at all -- it's about endurance.
 
"the maximal amount called for in the action" isn't the definition of strength at all. You have to provide an external resistance, and see how much force can be produced against that resistance. This can be done with kettlebell, barbell, bodyweight, atlas stone, etc... but it's a maximal force.

The only way to improve strength is to progressively challenge your ability to produce force with a combination of volume (reps/sets) and intensity (weight relative to one's strength) programmed to force an adaptation. The only way I know if I've improved my strength is if I can move more weight in any particular movement. Not if I can move it more times, or more often, or with more quality, or even with more speed... Only this: can I move more weight, or produce more force against that resistance.

Now I suppose one could argue that if I see an improvement in a 5-rep-max (5RM) as opposed to a on one-rep-max (1RM), I've improved my strength. But in that case I would say the 5RM is a proxy for the 1RM. I'm drawing an inference about the maximal force I think I can produce. Drawing that out to 10,000 steps of walking isn't about strength at all -- it's about endurance.

Brings a happy tear to my eye.
 
As a former LED snob I have to say walking definitely 'strengthens' me, as in feeling more 'put together'. Rowing also has the same effects, and then some (for me).

Regarding walking increasing limit strength as a sole means I say no, no it won't.. but as a means of tying things together better and putting you in a better base position for 'strength training' it absolutely is helping me.

Of course I'm talking about walks of around 5 miles, or 75 mins roughly, to get the maximum benefits you should walk with purpose, at a decent clip, 15 min/mi is a good pace.. for now.. for me..
 
I wouldn't call walking strength training but it does involve strength, of course, just not much, which is fine. Being able to walk is a pretty reasonable indicator of base structural strength, isn't it?
A very strong strength athlete who can squat a horse but can't walk to the shops is not really much of an athlete, really are they? At least how I think of athleticism.
You can define strength in context and in the context of athleticism. If, in the pursuit of strength, you lose the ability to walk due to injury, pain or take an effing golf buggy then you are no longer strong and purposeful and need an existential overview of priorities.
Walking is a pretty basic move. Machines can lift heavier stuff than we can but no robot can yet match the intricate biomechanics of such basic human moovement that we take for granted. Lose that or choose not to then such a basic thing will render you basically *ucked.
 
As a former LED snob I have to say walking definitely 'strengthens' me, as in feeling more 'put together'. Rowing also has the same effects, and then some (for me).

Regarding walking increasing limit strength as a sole means I say no, no it won't.. but as a means of tying things together better and putting you in a better base position for 'strength training' it absolutely is helping me.

Of course I'm talking about walks of around 5 miles, or 75 mins roughly, to get the maximum benefits you should walk with purpose, at a decent clip, 15 min/mi is a good pace.. for now.. for me..
What you write is exactly what has been my experience, down to the discovery that I need at least 75 minutes at a time for it to be much worth it.
 
I wouldn't call walking strength training but it does involve strength, of course, just not much, which is fine. Being able to walk is a pretty reasonable indicator of base structural strength, isn't it?
A very strong strength athlete who can squat a horse but can't walk to the shops is not really much of an athlete, really are they? At least how I think of athleticism.
You can define strength in context and in the context of athleticism. If, in the pursuit of strength, you lose the ability to walk due to injury, pain or take an effing golf buggy then you are no longer strong and purposeful and need an existential overview of priorities.
Walking is a pretty basic move. Machines can lift heavier stuff than we can but no robot can yet match the intricate biomechanics of such basic human moovement that we take for granted. Lose that or choose not to then such a basic thing will render you basically *ucked.
This is exactly my point. Look at people who don't walk more than for 5 minutes a day, and this includes some strength "athletes"! Their bodies look weird, they have problems with mobility including severely painful ones, and they are indeed basically *ucked.
If I haven't walked (for more than a few minutes a day) for a few weeks I really feel it after walking my 75 minutes route for the first time again, so I do know that walking this route a few times a week creates adaptations in my body to handle the stress of it. I also have to say that if I miss a week of walking I start getting horrible pains through my back and into my hips and neck even. Things just aren't moving smoothly in my body any more.

I do believe that walking is necessary to do for several hours a week to maintain a baseline of physical fitness. Mixing in running I think is fine as it's similar although I'd not advocate sitting on a sofa and then suddenly launching into runs without a bit of walking to stretch and flex out the joints and connective tissues in the body before and after.

That said, my take on walking is of its baseline strength, cardio and mobility maintenance. I think it can indeed stand alone as a baseline fitness program - in my experience 3 times a week of 75 minutes of reasonably brisk walking seemed to keep me going quite well. However, with S&S on my plate, I'm not so concerned about getting in exactly 3 walks a week - at least one for sure as I do think the mobility exercise of walking is important to maintain, but as regards cardio and strength, S&S blows it away, of course!

One thing I have disagreed with others on these forums about was the validity of S&S as cardio training. I am quite certain that S&S fits the bill quite well for this! Still, as some have pointed out, the Long Easy Distance kind of cardio training like walking, running, biking or playing a sport like soccer seems to adapt the heart in another kind of way and so is well worth doing even if it's just as an adjunct once a week to S&S.
 
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"the maximal amount called for in the action" isn't the definition of strength at all. You have to provide an external resistance, and see how much force can be produced against that resistance. This can be done with kettlebell, barbell, bodyweight, atlas stone, etc... but it's a maximal force.

The only way to improve strength is to progressively challenge your ability to produce force with a combination of volume (reps/sets) and intensity (weight relative to one's strength) programmed to force an adaptation. The only way I know if I've improved my strength is if I can move more weight in any particular movement. Not if I can move it more times, or more often, or with more quality, or even with more speed... Only this: can I move more weight, or produce more force against that resistance.

Now I suppose one could argue that if I see an improvement in a 5-rep-max (5RM) as opposed to a on one-rep-max (1RM), I've improved my strength. But in that case I would say the 5RM is a proxy for the 1RM. I'm drawing an inference about the maximal force I think I can produce. Drawing that out to 10,000 steps of walking isn't about strength at all -- it's about endurance.
Well fair enough; muscles have both absolute strength and also endurance aspects to them. Perhaps in terms of absolute strength walking for 75 minutes is little different from walking for 1 minute across my living room and kitchen and back, but in terms of endurance things are certainly happening - my heart rate picks up and my muscles get tingly and tighter.

At Strongfirst we have several moves that are primarily endurance ones such as the swing and the TGU; also several moves that are primarily just mobility like the goblet squat. Endurance and mobility are I think in the context of our Strongfirst philosophy (if I may be allowed to consider myself an acolyte) forms of strength.
 
I've gotta throw my vote in with walking is not strength. Because of the same diminishing returns argument made against absolute strength. At some point (and I would say a very easily- reached point), training to walk further does not improve your abilities in other tasks - it just makes you better at walking further.
 
I certainly agree walking is a wonderful and essential activity and that it does great things for the body. No argument there.

Endurance, mobility, skill, power, agility, balance, athleticism... all great things. But strength is a particular quality in physical training and I think sometimes we muddle the definition of strength to mean "all good qualities that we train to improve" It's not. It's the ability to produce force against resistance.

Enduring what?

In the context that I used it in, 10,000 steps of walking. Doesn't require much endurance, but might be a lot for someone who doesn't walk at all. For those who do, the same thing could be said about 100,000 steps of walking.

At Strongfirst we have several moves that are primarily endurance ones such as the swing and the TGU

I wouldn't say these are primarily endurance exercises. Done per the S&S program, the TGU is strength (and strength endurance), and the swing is strength and power.

Endurance and mobility are I think in the context of our Strongfirst philosophy (if I may be allowed to consider myself an acolyte) forms of strength.

Endurance is a quality,
Mobility is a quality,
Strength is a quality. Endurance and mobility are not "forms of strength." They are different athletic/movement qualities.

Sometimes qualities can be combined, such as strength endurance, the ability to produce force for a duration of time.

Other qualities are properties of two, such as power, the ability to produce force quickly.
 
I certainly agree walking is a wonderful and essential activity and that it does great things for the body. No argument there.

Endurance, mobility, skill, power, agility, balance, athleticism... all great things. But strength is a particular quality in physical training and I think sometimes we muddle the definition of strength to mean "all good qualities that we train to improve" It's not. It's the ability to produce force against resistance.



In the context that I used it in, 10,000 steps of walking. Doesn't require much endurance, but might be a lot for someone who doesn't walk at all. For those who do, the same thing could be said about 100,000 steps of walking.



I wouldn't say these are primarily endurance exercises. Done per the S&S program, the TGU is strength (and strength endurance), and the swing is strength and power.



Endurance is a quality,
Mobility is a quality,
Strength is a quality. Endurance and mobility are not "forms of strength." They are different athletic/movement qualities.

Sometimes qualities can be combined, such as strength endurance, the ability to produce force for a duration of time.

Other qualities are properties of two, such as power, the ability to produce force quickly.
All true.
 
In the context that I used it in, 10,000 steps of walking. Doesn't require much endurance, but might be a lot for someone who doesn't walk at all. For those who do, the same thing could be said about 100,000 steps of walking.
1 step of walking might be a lot for someone, like me, who couldn't walk for a few months.

I don't care if one puts the strength it takes to walk down as a regression and not a progression, but it takes strength nonetheless in my book.

-S-
 
1 step of walking might be a lot for someone, like me, who couldn't walk for a few months.

I don't care if one puts the strength it takes to walk down as a regression and not a progression, but it takes strength nonetheless in my book.

-S-
I couldn't walk for 5 weeks once due to a back injury. I take walking very seriously. Walking is a "strength" that I value over any kind of supplementary exercise. I need to walk, I don't need to lift heavy iron. Need and would like to are different animals.
 
[edit]this post turned out as a lot more rambling than it looked like in my head...


I think we are getting confused by definitions and applications of qualities for different activities.

I will side with @Anna C here, there are generally accepted definitions for the 3 pillars of general human ability (let's leave aside skill, mobility etc for the moment to keep it simple).
  • Strength is a quality, and is defined as the ability to exert maximal force against a resistance
  • Endurance is a quality, and is usually defined as the ability to sustain a certain effort for an extended period of time
  • Speed is a quality, and is usually defined as the ability to produce force rapidly for short amounts of time
What muddies this discussion is the application of these qualities to certain activities, like walking or running.

Here's a picture (linked from cyclingtips.com)
advancedtriangle.jpg


So the 3 qualities are the corner stones of physical ability. All of them are involved to different levels in all physical activities. They also all rely on each other (speed relies on strength and endurance, strength requires speed and endurance, endurance requires strength and speed), on differing levels.
Combining them (admittedly simplified in the triangle view) gives rise to further qualities:
  • Strength endurance, sustaining a certain level of strength for a prolonged period of time
  • Power, exerting maximum strength quickly over a short period of time
  • Speed endurance, exerting a certain level of force quickly over a period of time

Again, all 3 exist on a continuum, and are used to different levels for different activities.

If we go by this we can classify each activity on the main requirement and thus find out what potential it has for achieving a training effect.
This continuum can be applied to all physical activities (powerlifting requires lots of strength but very little endurance or speed; olympic lifts require lots of power hence lots of strength and speed but not much endurance; etc), but as the discussion here is linked to walking we can focus on that.

Walking requires all qualities, but endurance (both speed and strength) is by far the highest requirement. Speed and strength qualities are required at low levels only (but still cannot be neglected).
So, someone who does not have enough strength to walk for longer periods will absolutely build raw strength to be able to display the strength endurance required for his walking. However once that level is reached there is almost no further building of strength involved, but rather that level of strength gets expressed and trained toward the strength endurance quality.
This also means that building strength through proper strength focused modalities is both quicker and more effective to achieve the required level of maximum strength, to be converted into strength endurance.

Running is about the same, but both strength and endurance qualities are required to a higher level to be able to express the higher strength endurance running requires. But still the same principles apply (as they will for all endurance focused activities like biking, swimming, rucking, etc)

So, does walking build strength? Yes! But only up to a point. Once the point of strong enough is reached it will convert raw strength into strength endurance (which is a very useful quality for daily life but still different from how raw strength is defined). Very little strength will be built.
Note that this changes once you change either one of the expressions of the 3 pillars: increased bodyweight means increased application of force against resistance so you need higher strength requirement and training; increase the duration and you need more base strength to maintain the same strength endurance and speed; increase speed and you need more endurance and strength to maintain the same duration; etc)

Does strength training help walking? Yes! Clearly, the stronger you are the more you have to convert into strength endurance (you become more efficient). Again, up to a point, where strength training limits endurance training and becomes counter-productive

Does walking help strength training? Yes, but only to the point of where you have enough strength endurance for your strength training (sets of 1, sets of 5, etc, all have an endurance component, but very little compared to the strength requirement). After that level is reached walking will not help strength development.

Is walking absolutely required as an activity for daily life? Yes! But as a completely different discussion.
If all you care about is strength (like a powerlifter), or power (like a thrower), then it is actually counterproductive, as lots of energy will be shifted towards training the endurance quality, which is not required for and a hindrance to your sports performance.

So, it all depends on goals and performance requirements (which we all knew already)

Still, when discussing different activities, a clear definition of the qualities involved is needed, otherwise we end up all saying the same thing in a different way
 
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1 step of walking might be a lot for someone, like me, who couldn't walk for a few months.

I don't care if one puts the strength it takes to walk down as a regression and not a progression, but it takes strength nonetheless in my book.

-S-

I used to train with a guy back in my BB days who had been in a car crash - Doc said he would never walk again without assistance.

He told me of his first unassisted walk to the mailbox after doing months of rehab - had to sit and rest and was soaked in sweat but he made it. Strength might be an absolute quality in the gym, but in the real world its all relative.
 
[edit]this post turned out as a lot more rambling than it looked like in my head...


I think we are getting confused by definitions and applications of qualities for different activities.

I will side with @Anna C here, there are generally accepted definitions for the 3 pillars of general human ability (let's leave aside skill, mobility etc for the moment to keep it simple).
  • Strength is a quality, and is defined as the ability to exert maximal force against a resistance
  • Endurance is a quality, and is usually defined as the ability to sustain a certain effort for an extended period of time
  • Speed is a quality, and is usually defined as the ability to produce force rapidly for short amounts of time
What muddies this discussion is the application of these qualities to certain activities, like walking or running.

Here's a picture (linked from cyclingtips.com)
advancedtriangle.jpg


So the 3 qualities are the corner stones of physical ability. All of them are involved to different levels in all physical activities. They also all rely on each other (speed relies on strength and endurance, strength requires speed and endurance, endurance requires strength and speed), on differing levels.
Combining them (admittedly simplified in the triangle view) gives rise to further qualities:
  • Strength endurance, sustaining a certain level of strength for a prolonged period of time
  • Power, exerting maximum strength quickly over a short period of time
  • Speed endurance, exerting a certain level of force quickly over a period of time

Again, all 3 exist on a continuum, and are used to different levels for different activities.

If we go by this we can classify each activity on the main requirement and thus find out what potential it has for achieving a training effect.
This continuum can be applied to all physical activities (powerlifting requires lots of strength but very little endurance or speed; olympic lifts require lots of power hence lots of strength and speed but not much endurance; etc), but as the discussion here is linked to walking we can focus on that.

Walking requires all qualities, but endurance (both speed and strength) is by far the highest requirement. Speed and strength qualities are required at low levels only (but still cannot be neglected).
So, someone who does not have enough strength to walk for longer periods will absolutely build raw strength to be able to display the strength endurance required for his walking. However once that level is reached there is almost no further building of strength involved, but rather that level of strength gets expressed and trained toward the strength endurance quality.
This also means that building strength through proper strength focused modalities is both quicker and more effective to achieve the required level of maximum strength, to be converted into strength endurance.

Running is about the same, but both strength and endurance qualities are required to a higher level to be able to express the higher strength endurance running requires. But still the same principles apply (as they will for all endurance focused activities like biking, swimming, rucking, etc)

So, does walking build strength? Yes! But only up to a point. Once the point of strong enough is reached it will convert raw strength into strength endurance (which is a very useful quality for daily life but still different from how raw strength is defined). Very little strength will be built.
Note that this changes once you change either one of the expressions of the 3 pillars: increased bodyweight means increased application of force against resistance so you need higher strength requirement and training; increase the duration and you need more base strength to maintain the same strength endurance and speed; increase speed and you need more endurance and strength to maintain the same duration; etc)

Does strength training help walking? Yes! Clearly, the stronger you are the more you have to convert into strength endurance (you become more efficient). Again, up to a point, where strength training limits endurance training and becomes counter-productive

Does walking help strength training? Yes, but only to the point of where you have enough strength endurance for your strength training (sets of 1, sets of 5, etc, all have an endurance component, but very little compared to the strength requirement). After that level is reached walking will not help strength development.

Is walking absolutely required as an activity for daily life? Yes! But as a completely different discussion.
If all you care about is strength (like a powerlifter), or power (like a thrower), then it is actually counterproductive, as lots of energy will be shifted towards training the endurance quality, which is not required for and a hindrance to your sports performance.

So, it all depends on goals and performance requirements (which we all knew already)

Still, when discussing different activities, a clear definition of the qualities involved is needed, otherwise we end up all saying the same thing in a different way
100% Agree. I super appreciate your taking the time to explain this all so clearly and logically!!!
 
Still, when discussing different activities, a clear definition of the qualities involved is needed, otherwise we end up all saying the same thing in a different way
Agreed, forum discussions tend to go this way until a consensus is reached (or not) on definition of topic(s).
 
I'll restate that I think that if someone neglects walking or running entirely they are going to face some problems in their physique. Now, perhaps walking from one place to another for 20 minutes a day total all told might fit the bill provided you're actually training hard in other ways like doing S&S or ROP, but I don't think it's wise to get the idea that it's okay to be a literal couch potato all day except for when you lift weights.
 
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