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Kettlebell "Enter the Kettlebell" Questions

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MattM said:
@Kozushi @patterner

Things Are Going So Well, Help Me Screw It Up, Part 2
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Fascinating! I was intrigued at how you have the option of returning to S&S with a heavier bell after achieving the ROP goals. Pressing half my bodyweight would be the 48kg bell - a very distant goal for me now. The 200 snatches in 5 minutes with the 24kg don't sound so bad though for me.

From what I'm gathering here, it would seem that, given also that I'm not some kind of pro anyhow, to keep up with the S&S and see if I can move slowly at this point towards the 40kg over the next half year or so, but to incorporate clean&presses and snatches into my daily routine as drills, and maybe start working up from the 24kg towards the 32 and beyond with the S&P.
 
The Rite of Passage is not a same-thing-every-day program like S&S. Please read Enter The Kettlebell for guidance on the ROP.

-S-
 
Just my 2p worth.

I found RoP to be much more time consuming particularly as you progress through the later weeks of a bell size. I also found it easy to listen to your ego and kick off with too a heavy bell and fail later in the cycle - really pay attention to selecting the right bell size (ie one you can do 8-10 reps with).

By contrast S+S is pretty much idiot-proof and can sit alongside what ever else is going on in your life. I personally get more out of TGUs than C+Ps but there is no doubt a very special pleasure to hitting a new PB on a press.
 
The good news is you are working out with kettlebells and enjoying it.

As long as you're showing up and doing something, you'll maintain fitness and strength.

Simple and Sinister and ROP are completely different animals. In the ROP, if you're doing your presses and going hard on your swings and snatches, I personally think you'll be stronger and in much better condition. Take a bell you can clean and press 5 x. Do each hand. Now go to 5 pullups. You're heart will be pumping and you will be out of breath. If you roll a 2 for swings. Grab the heaviest bell you have and try to swing it for the majority of the 2 minutes. Set of 30, do 10 jumping jacks another set of 30 until the clock is up.

Since you feel the need to complicate it try breaking into the ROP

Do you Simple and Sinister, but for the next month, 3 days a week or every other day. Do clean and press before the S + S workout. Easy day 3 x 5, Medium Day 4 x 5, Heavy Day 5 x 5. Then do S & S.

Try it for a month, as long as your consistently showing up, you're not going to lose a thing.
 
It is interesting how different the thoughts are here, coming from different experiences. In the end it must come down to goals, but probably "which makes you stronger?" is a valid question, but then again, what kind of strength are we talking about? I was very happy to finally be able to complete the full S&S routine last night with the 32kg (after a three week hiatus due to a sore spinal column), and immediately afterwards I did a few sets of 3 with the 24kg doing clean and press movements and snatches. I tried to press the 32kg but had no hope at all of doing so. I am lucky to have had the chance to test the benefits of S&S for judo, and I discovered that S&S with the 32kg made me extremely much stronger than I had ever been in my entire life before. Evidently, that is more than enough strength for my needs, proven on the mats(!), but, I'm sold on the benefits of the press in "Enter the Kettlebell" and I'll want to include that in my routine. Anyhow, manipulating the bells for presses is FUN! Thank you BrianCF for the pointers on how to add this in. Something makes me think that the TGU, the C&P and the swings ought to more than cover whatever benefits the snatch would bequeathe, but that's also a fun one anyhow and there isn't any reason to neglect it entirely. I think it would make sense though to try to work towards pressing with the 32kg and not staying with the little wee 24kg; I feel like a bit of a weakling having to switch over to that from the the 32kg I am using in S&S. I guess after a lot of work with the 24kg I'll be able to move up to one rep and then more little by little with the 32kg.

Fun and important stuff! Thank you!

When it comes to weightlifting, ignorance is definitely NOT bliss!
 
I found grip strength/endurance to be my biggest limitation in progressing in S&S. I find I can develop grip strength without being as limited by it in ROP (my press/pull numbers are increasing, AND my grip strength is increasing, rather than just my grip strength increasing on S&S).
 
One thing I don't understand is why anyone would want to give up the beautiful full body strengthening benefits of the Turkish Get Up to "progress" to just snatches and presses. Snatches and presses I can't see replicating the TGU's full body development.
 
Kozushi, you make a valid point however I see it differently in some aspects. WhenI got into kettlebell training I had difficulty pressing overhead due to many years of overuse of the bench press which was very common. I thought the days of overhead work were over for me. After using them through various programs, most of which feature overhead work, my shoulders feel good and strong now. As such I want to continue doing so.

Also, the press done the SF way is really a full body movement. Presses and snatches in my mind exemplify a fullbody push and pull. I think Pavel quoted Bob Hoffman in ETK whom I believe was from York Barbell back in the day as saying something to the effect of pulls and pushes can create a superman.

Whatever works for you, stick with it.
 
Kozushi said:
I ordered and read "Enter the Kettlebell" coming from mainly an S&S background and I have a few questions:

1. Is ROP better than the full S&S programme, or is it an alternative? If so, what is better about it (or worse)???

2. If snatches are hard on the shoulders and not to be done often anyhow, why bother? Why not just stick with swings as in S&S?

3. If you're doing plenty of swings anyway, why bother with the clean before your presses, as the clean is just a lamed swing? Why not just do military presses in ladders or sets without the clean involved after each rep? The book says that dispensing with the cleans in between (and only doing sets of presses) actually gives you more muscle mass anyhow - and isn't this a major point of weightlifting?

4. Pullups (I love them - been doing them since youth!) - can these be added to S&S in the way ROP prescribes without overtaxing the body?

5. Would this kind of workout be an acceptable (albeit slightly simplified) use of the book's knowledge for a more or less daily workout: swings (10X10 as in S&S), military presses (5X5 ladders or similar), pullups (something like the military press ladders)???
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1. ROP is an excellent follow-up program to SAS.

2. Snatches are not hard on shoulders. Bad snatches are. Same thing applies if the shoulders are not snatch ready. SAS get-ups first, lots of presses, pullups, and easy snatches - it will make your shoulders antifragile, and with a proper snatch technique you will benefit from the snatch tremendously.

3. Clean is an excellent drill. If you can clean properly, you will press more.

4. Quoting @Pavel : "S&S helps pullups indirectly (grip and abs) but it also fatigues the grip. Reduce your S&S to two to three time a week and train pullups on alternate days."

5. ROP is one of the best programs ever, period. Why to screw up something that worked thousand times for thousands people?
 
Snowman said:
5) To quote @Steve Freides from this thread:

One thing I keep wanting someone to try is the Rite of Simple & Sinister - do your swings as prescribed by S&S, then on 3 days/week, do the presses as prescribed by ETK's Rite of Passage. Take as much of a break as you want, need, and can in between the swings and presses.

A second option for the Rite of Simple & Sinister would be to separate the press and swing sessions by 6 hours or more, in which case you could do the presses first.

I think both of these are approaches worth trying but I am not aware of anyone who has done either, including me.

-S-

Or you could do ROP, but do you swings S&S style (sets of 10, with plenty of rest between sets). Maybe use three dice instead of two since you'll be resting more. However, your power production on the swings would be diminished, so don't get mad when your swing progress slows down.
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I'm doing the ROP, but variety days are S&S. So three days (M-W-F) are medium, heavy, light, and two or three days (Tu-Th-sometimes Sa) are swings and TGU. It's a good mix so far. I swing a 24 kg bell on ROP days, and a 32 kg on S&S days. And I didn't have to give up TGU to build my press :)
 
mightstone2k said:
I'm doing the ROP, but variety days are S&S. So three days (M-W-F) are medium, heavy, light, and two or three days (Tu-Th-sometimes Sa) are swings and TGU. It's a good mix so far. I swing a 24 kg bell on ROP days, and a 32 kg on S&S days. And I didn't have to give up TGU to build my press :)
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How far into ROP are you?
 
Interesting. I am seeing different points of view from different experts on this forum. Given that both programmes were designed and perfect my Pavel Tsatsouline, I'd like a clear idea based on his thoughts. The books are a bit tricky to use to discern where he thinks things should go. Enter the Kettlebell was written a long time before Simple and Sinister. My default idea has to be that he considers Simple and Sinister to be the current highest level evolution of his training methodology. However, seeing a progression past the "Simple" goals in S&S to EITHER the ROP or Sinister could also make a lot of sense. In the end, as I know I'm following the right guy and the right work, I want to progress exactly as Pavel T recommends. If ROP is better than progressing slowly towards the Sinister goal, then so be it - I'll go in that direction. If the Sinister goal is the better one in his thinking I'll progress towards that one. Of course, for me, having started almost from day 1 with the S&S routine, that stuff is of course the most natural feeling programme. I'm at 32kg in my S&S, having achieved the "Simple" goal. I've bought the next pood bell and it's there looking at me while I do my S&S routine. I'm already very strong with the 32 but when I get to the 40 - yikes! That's incredibly strong!
 
John Grahill said:
Kozushi, you make a valid point however I see it differently in some aspects. WhenI got into kettlebell training I had difficulty pressing overhead due to many years of overuse of the bench press which was very common. I thought the days of overhead work were over for me. After using them through various programs, most of which feature overhead work, my shoulders feel good and strong now. As such I want to continue doing so.

Also, the press done the SF way is really a full body movement. Presses and snatches in my mind exemplify a fullbody push and pull. I think Pavel quoted Bob Hoffman in ETK whom I believe was from York Barbell back in the day as saying something to the effect of pulls and pushes can create a superman.

Whatever works for you, stick with it.
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Yes, and a nice thing about ROP is you don't have to lie on the ground (and sweat on it - haha!) Would you say that the ROP is "Better" than S&S for getting strong, or just a different way to skin the push&pull cat?

I've been comparing the Turkish get up with overhead presses in my mind as I do both these days, and I do seem to be activating all the muscles used in the press (and more too) while doing the Turkish get up. The get up adds a lot of clever balancing maneuvers in all sorts of directions and postures. However, if the net benefit of the overhead press is close to the same, yet bought at less complexity - well, that's one reason to prefer it I suppose.

Interesting stuff!!!
 
This stuff, right?

  • Swing (10 repetitions each side)
  • Double Clean (5 repetitions)
  • Press (5 repetitions each side)
  • Double Front Squat (5 repetitions)
  • Snatch (5 repetitions each side)
  • Get up (1 repetition each side)
I'd probably fail on the exact placement of this or that arm, leg, hip or whatever, but doing these things with a 24kg is right now almost a joke. The 32kg would be more of something I'd have to work up to - not ready to do all that stuff well with hit yet. The 100 snatches in 5 minutes with perfectly straight form at the top every time with the 24kg - I haven't done that many snatches in a row yet. Sounds interesting!​
 
Kozushi said:
One thing I don't understand is why anyone would want to give up the beautiful full body strengthening benefits of the Turkish Get Up to "progress" to just snatches and presses. Snatches and presses I can't see replicating the TGU's full body development.
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This is a bit like saying "I don't understand why some people prefer the color blue over the color red." I simply prefer snatches and presses over the TGU. Maybe that makes me strange. When I did ROP I always did the pull ups and at least one of the variety days had a barbell squat. So, does doing presses, pull ups, snatches, and squats equal the benefits of the TGU? I don't know. I would say to a large extent they do. If you prefer the TGU, great.
 
MattM said:
How far into ROP are you?
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A few months? I don't have my training log handy, but I started with 3 ladders of 3 rungs each with 16 kg. My last heavy day was 3 ladders of 5/4/4 rungs with 20 kg. And I've improved every heavy day on my last one. It doesn't seem like it's been too long that I've been following this format, but it has probably been longer than it seems. The medium-heavy-light format does a great job of avoiding monotony.
 
MikeTheBear said:
This is a bit like saying "I don't understand why some people prefer the color blue over the color red." I simply prefer snatches and presses over the TGU. Maybe that makes me strange. When I did ROP I always did the pull ups and at least one of the variety days had a barbell squat. So, does doing presses, pull ups, snatches, and squats equal the benefits of the TGU? I don't know. I would say to a large extent they do. If you prefer the TGU, great.
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I'm just trying to decide if I want to switch over to ROP from S&S, although so far I don't think I want to - just adding in some clean and press drills according to some advice found here on these forums.
 
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