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Kettlebell Escalating Density Snatches - HR graphs

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Oscar

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I've been doing escalating density snatches once a week ala @Brett Jones prep guide, preparing for SFG 1 in November. I use the 20 kg for now and been using a HRM.

I'm a bit intrigued by the HR graphs. Below are my sessions with 7/7, 8/8 and 9/9 reps on the minute. It was 12 minutes, 10 minutes and 8 minutes the duration of each session.

First, I find it interesting that both average HR and peak HR were higher with 7/7 than with 8/8 and 9/9. It was 171 avg/182 peak vs 169 avg/181 for the denser sessions.

My conclusion from this is that, for more density than 7/7, my HR just can't go any higher and my aerobic system is contributing up to that much? Does that make sense? So higher density than 7/7, the energy system is necessarily glycolitic. If this is the case, what is being trained by the high density sessions?

Thoughts?

I'll tag a few who have been doing snatches with HRM. @Anna C @Steve W. @Snowman @fractal @Bret S.

7/7 OTM, 12 minutes.
Screenshot_20190728-222628_Chrome.jpg

8/8 OTM, 10 minutes
Screenshot_20190728-222354_Chrome.jpg
9/9 OTM , 8 min
Screenshot_20190728-222128_Chrome.jpg
 
I've been doing escalating density snatches once a week ala @Brett Jones prep guide, preparing for SFG 1 in November. I use the 20 kg for now and been using a HRM.

I'm a bit intrigued by the HR graphs. Below are my sessions with 7/7, 8/8 and 9/9 reps on the minute. It was 12 minutes, 10 minutes and 8 minutes the duration of each session.

First, I find it interesting that both average HR and peak HR were higher with 7/7 than with 8/8 and 9/9. It was 171 avg/182 peak vs 169 avg/181 for the denser sessions.

My conclusion from this is that, for more density than 7/7, my HR just can't go any higher and my aerobic system is contributing up to that much? Does that make sense? So higher density than 7/7, the energy system is necessarily glycolitic. If this is the case, what is being trained by the high density sessions?

Thoughts?

I'll tag a few who have been doing snatches with HRM. @Anna C @Steve W. @Snowman @fractal @Bret S.

7/7 OTM, 12 minutes.
View attachment 8832

8/8 OTM, 10 minutes
View attachment 8834
9/9 OTM , 8 min
View attachment 8835

One major difference is that your starting HR for the 7/7 was 108, 8/8 95 and 9/9 84. I think that may contribute to the difference in average HR. I don’t think there’s much difference in 1bpm average or max, especially as there are so many variables that can affect HR day to day. I’m thinking 182 may be your max HR as well, so you’re already at the ceiling. That 9/9 session looks like it was painful!
 
I agree with @fractal

My conclusion from this is that, for more density than 7/7, my HR just can't go any higher and my aerobic system is contributing up to that much? Does that make sense? So higher density than 7/7, the energy system is necessarily glycolitic. If this is the case, what is being trained by the high density sessions?

Your aerobic system is contributing as much as it can for each of these. I think it will do a better job at this, and possibly result in a lower heart rate overall and less pain, if you warm it up first, as we talked about here.

The effort for all of these is mostly glycolitic. No way around that. The only way snatching will be purely aerobic is if you're using a super light bell and it feels like an easy jog that could go on forever and your HR is down around 140 or lower (I'm estimating your MAF HR). And the only way it's alactic is if you only snatch for about 15 seconds and then fully recover (as with A+A, where the effort is normally hard, heavy, and explosive). So other than that, you're squarely in glycolytic land with snatching. Nothing wrong with that per se, you just don't want to train like that all the time.

I would say what is being trained by the high density sessions is:
1) energy-system wise, your lactate tolerance in glycolysis, and probably some VO2max type training for the aerobic system (as HIIT would do)
2) muscle-wise, your endurance
3) mentally, slowly approaching snatch test conditions building confidence and fortitude to do it.
 
I agree with @fractal



Your aerobic system is contributing as much as it can for each of these. I think it will do a better job at this, and possibly result in a lower heart rate overall and less pain, if you warm it up first, as we talked about here.

The effort for all of these is mostly glycolitic. No way around that. The only way snatching will be purely aerobic is if you're using a super light bell and it feels like an easy jog that could go on forever and your HR is down around 140 or lower (I'm estimating your MAF HR). And the only way it's alactic is if you only snatch for about 15 seconds and then fully recover (as with A+A, where the effort is normally hard, heavy, and explosive). So other than that, you're squarely in glycolytic land with snatching. Nothing wrong with that per se, you just don't want to train like that all the time.

I would say what is being trained by the high density sessions is:
1) energy-system wise, your lactate tolerance in glycolysis, and probably some VO2max type training for the aerobic system (as HIIT would do)
2) muscle-wise, your endurance
3) mentally, slowly approaching snatch test conditions building confidence and fortitude to do it.

@Anna C
When you talk about warmup in your referenced post, what HR do you have in mind, around MAF or lower (depending on age), e.g. at 120bpm?
 
Looks like a typical HIIT reaction - you're topping out, recovery HR per interval is basically a function of non-working time. Your 9x9 is basically pancaked.

When I do my HIIT I have a 20 second work to 40 second rest over 12 minutes, takes about 3-5 intervals to top out at 180-185 BPM and my recovery and working HR are only bouncing about 15-20 up and down with a slow trend upward on the recovery HR. Once it gets to about 10 BPM variance I know I'm topped out.
 
@Anna C
When you talk about warmup in your referenced post, what HR do you have in mind, around MAF or lower (depending on age), e.g. at 120bpm?

About that amount of work, yes, but not aiming for any specific heart rate. To properly warm up the aerobic system when doing steady state work like for a MAF training or testing session, you'd spend 12 minutes with the heart rate lower than MAF (source: MAF Arerobic Training guidelines). But for a brief and expeditous warm-up, I think a few quick intervals work well. For example, I might do 30 seconds of jumping jacks at a rate that, if I were continue at that pace, would bring my HR higher than MAF. But 30 sec work, 30 sec rest, repeated a couple of times seems to be about right. It's more of a feeling than a science, IMO. Just getting the HR up a little bit without getting much into glycolysis or inducing any fatigue.
 
Thanks all for your comments!

@fractal I agree with you that the higher average HR might be related with having started at a higher HR to begin with. In a practical sense, it appears that the average HR is more or less the same for the 3 sessions. And yes it was painful! but to my surprise, the 3 sessions were equally painful, the 9/9 was not harder than th 7/7. It was just like removing a band aid, I just got over with it faster. What I´m liking about these sessions is that they are painful but doable, they seem to be designed to reach the limit, but not go over it.

@Anna C thanks, that´s what I thought. I´m feeling a lot more comfortable at a HR of 170 now than when I did S&S. I basically feel normal at that HR, so that might be a result of this type of training, from a combination of the 3 training aspects you mentioned I guess. What I wonder is how much further I can improve this way?

I just dont understand well how does the glycolytic system improve. The only easy answer I can come up with is to have bigger muscles. That, and getting used mentally to the type of effort, which is more subjective.

About the warm up, I was pretty warmed up at that time, I started the snatches after 30 minutes of training. Would you say that some specific cardio warm up would help?

@North Coast Miller so your HR drops from 180 to 160 in 20 seconds when you do this type of sessions? You recover fast. 40/20 seconds was my 8/8 session, and I wasnt even close to recovering 20 beats in the 20 second rest.
 
@Anna C thanks, that´s what I thought. I´m feeling a lot more comfortable at a HR of 170 now than when I did S&S. I basically feel normal at that HR, so that might be a result of this type of training, from a combination of the 3 training aspects you mentioned I guess. What I wonder is how much further I can improve this way?

I just dont understand well how does the glycolytic system improve. The only easy answer I can come up with is to have bigger muscles. That, and getting used mentally to the type of effort, which is more subjective.

I think of it like this... 1) use the glycolytic system to peak for a glycolytic performance event, such as a snatch test. 2 weeks, maybe 6 sessions total of this is plenty to peak for an event. Not recommended to continue training like this. You might see further improvements, but the cost outweighs the benefit at some point. 2) You CAN use glycolytic training to improve other fitness aspects, such as strength, strength endurance, V02max. Again, just realize there's a cost/benefit. And that varies from one person to another. Someone with good aerobic fitness can "absorb" more glycolytic training without adverse effects.

The way to improve performance in a glycolytic effort OTHER than peaking is by 1 ) training the aerobic system, and 2) training for strength. Train the base elements, then put the icing on the cake!

About the warm up, I was pretty warmed up at that time, I started the snatches after 30 minutes of training. Would you say that some specific cardio warm up would help?

I probably wouldn't do any additional cardio warm-up in this case, if you've already been moving for a while and there's good blood flow through the muscles. That warm-up applies more if going from basically a resting/walking state right into a snatch test. I still might do one 30 second set of jogging in place or jumping jacks, though, then 30 seconds rest, to get the breathing elevated a little bit. Try it and see if you like it...
 
@Oscar
I've never done any training with a heartrate monitor.

To me, if you want to get good at doing continuous snatches, you have to practice stretching out the set length and, well, snatching continuously. The heartrate when doing so is largely irrelevant, as are the energy systems involved (obviously the energy systems are relevant physiologically, but not in my thinking about preparation). A good aerobic base will help the process along, but that's separate training. In general, I find that specific training get gets the best results.

I'd recommend doing as much work as possible with the 24kg (and heavier to the extent you are able). Heavy bells make lighter bells feel lighter. The converse is not true.

The keys to continuous hard style snatching are:
--Good consistent technique. Technique that wastes hip power and/or puts unnecessary strain on your grip means that your margin of strength and conditioning has to be that much larger.
--Snatch specific grip strength and endurance. If you are insecure in your grip, you will subconsciously distort your technique and be inhibited from expressing your full strength and power. This is a HUGE factor in continuous snatching and the biggest reason to work with the heaviest bells possible (if this limits your overall volume, you can fill in with lighter bells).
--Strong and enduring hip drive.
--Aerobic capacity to not gas out early.
--Familiarity and comfort level with the discomfort. "Embrace the suck" so you can stay relaxed and grind through it. Nervousness for the test is normal, but conscious or unconscious panic/threat response will make you gas out a lot quicker. I don't think of it as determination, as much as being able to detach and psych yourself that "I've got this," no matter how you might be feeling physically. And it's much easier to do this when the physical discomfort is familiar.

So assess what are the biggest limiting factors for you and make sure your training prioritizes those.

For ME (not claiming this is at all universal), the biggest key to preparing for the 5 minute snatch test is being able to do the longest possible sets on one hand with the test size bell AND heavier. So if I'm training for a snatch test, I have a training plan that is geared around that.
 
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@North Coast Miller so your HR drops from 180 to 160 in 20 seconds when you do this type of sessions? You recover fast. 40/20 seconds was my 8/8 session, and I wasnt even close to recovering 20 beats in the 20 second rest.


My working period is 20 seconds and rest is 40, 20 seconds in it probably hasn't dropped at all...

When I'm doing jumprope HIIT I can't even start a new interval with anything under 35 seconds and if I reeled in that slack I'd have to cut the number of intervals. My HR at that point being a mystery, but my wind needs at least that much recovery.

Looking back at my notes, when I started doing these my HR topped out around 165 and only dropped about 5BPM on my final intervals.

As my conditioning improved I am able to really pick my knees up and HR goes a little higher with about a 10 BPM drop. If I were to run these out to 15 intervals it wouldn't surprise me if I were lucky to see it drop 5 though.

The most amazing thing about these intervals is how much "recovered" you can feel just getting your blood O2 back up, even if HR barely moves. I think the important metric aside from RPE at a given output is how much faster your HR normalizes or gets back to 100 or so when you stop entirely. Variation within an interval is going to be severely limited/linked to recovery time vs working time - exactly what you're seeing in the charts.
 
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