Kettlebell GS vs Hardstyle Cleans and Snatches
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Oscar
Level 7 Valued Member
This was a lousy mathematitian! The series of 1/2, 1/4, 1/8.... eventually converges, making it possible to reach the table.
MikeTheBear
Level 6 Valued Member
That's kind of my point. Is there a point where dialing down HS and dialing up GS causes these styles to "converge?" I don't know, but my guess is yes.
@Michael Scott, that line is a bit older in origin. Best guess is that Ecclesiastes is from around 300 BC.
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I don't there is a point. It'd be rather like trying to "converge" power and olympic lifts or something along those lines. Same weight but used differently.
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MikeTheBear
Level 6 Valued Member
This has been done with "dynamic effort" training or "speed day." Dynamic effort lives right on the border between "grind" lifts and Olympic or ballistic lifts.
@MikeTheBear, I am not an Olympic lifter, but I don't see this as a match. Westside's DE day is done with light weights, and an Oly lifter, except a novice, doesn't do much in that range that I'm aware of. And I'll add that we don't teach a DE effort approach to powerlifts at StrongFirst that I'm aware of because those things are rightly the domain of advanced lifters and in the realm of the core principles of strength we teach.
And there's the fact that there is not a lift common across the disciplines. PL'ers don't snatch or C&J a barbell, and Oly lifters don't do our SQ and DL. I'll stand by the fact that the fact that the kettlebell snatch, done on both "sides" of this "argument," is closer than any of those, and it's still best thought of as being a completely different thing.
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And there's the fact that there is not a lift common across the disciplines. PL'ers don't snatch or C&J a barbell, and Oly lifters don't do our SQ and DL. I'll stand by the fact that the fact that the kettlebell snatch, done on both "sides" of this "argument," is closer than any of those, and it's still best thought of as being a completely different thing.
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Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
GS is about saving as much energy as possible while HS can be described as spending as much energy as possible, but there are still special exercise techniques involved with both.
Dialing up one and dialing down the other so they "meet" in the middle doesn't make them the same or "converges" them IMO, because you only end up with the same energy expenditure but not with a "mixed" technique.
I can dial down my HS snatch from a 10 to a 1, but my heel still doesn't come of the ground, the KB path (looking from the front) is still a completely vertical line and not slightly diagonal, my legs are still not almost completely straight during the hinge and I still have a significant "punch up" towards the top of the movement - in short it's still a HS snatch.
On the other hand I can put more ooomph into my GS snatch, but it wouldn't look like a HS snatch.
What I'm trying to say is, if you'd take someone who's only ever done HS (let's say snatches) and you just tell him to do as many reps as possible he would stay with his technique, just with less tension etc. He wouldn't naturally start to use a GS snatch instead. Conversly if you tell a GS guy to snatch the heaviest possible weight he wouldn't instinctively use HS.
IMO for the styles to converge at some point this would need to happen naturally/instinctively, but it doesn't.
Dialing up one and dialing down the other so they "meet" in the middle doesn't make them the same or "converges" them IMO, because you only end up with the same energy expenditure but not with a "mixed" technique.
I can dial down my HS snatch from a 10 to a 1, but my heel still doesn't come of the ground, the KB path (looking from the front) is still a completely vertical line and not slightly diagonal, my legs are still not almost completely straight during the hinge and I still have a significant "punch up" towards the top of the movement - in short it's still a HS snatch.
On the other hand I can put more ooomph into my GS snatch, but it wouldn't look like a HS snatch.
What I'm trying to say is, if you'd take someone who's only ever done HS (let's say snatches) and you just tell him to do as many reps as possible he would stay with his technique, just with less tension etc. He wouldn't naturally start to use a GS snatch instead. Conversly if you tell a GS guy to snatch the heaviest possible weight he wouldn't instinctively use HS.
IMO for the styles to converge at some point this would need to happen naturally/instinctively, but it doesn't.
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Marlon Leon
Level 3 Valued Member
@MikeTheBear : The comparison of sprinting and long distance running is, I think, misleading as the outcome is very different. The running speed during a 100 m dash and a marathon are very different. In contrast snatching a kettlebell 100 times in five minutes or, as before, 200 times in ten minutes is only different to GS as you are allowed to put the bell down. The result in form of bringing the bell overhead in one motion is the same. The weight is the same. The amount of reps are the same. It is not the case that HS would use much higher weights. Actually many GS atheletes can use the very heavy bells without any problems.
I think the issue here is the tool, the kettlebel, which is not very well suited for maximum efforts. This is where the barbell shines as you already pointed out.
If I could snatch a 50 kg kettlebell I could make a decent post out of it. If I snatch a 50 kg barbell, everyone would think it was a warm up weight - and it should be. Now the muscles that move the weight in both cases are the same. Differences can be found in grip strength, overhead stability and anti-rotation, but in terms of power production it is the same. In the end it seems to me that GS athletes can snatch more weight for more reps.
I totally agree, though, on the point about books and training programs. Pavel is an outstanding writer and after reading his book one cannot else but start training.
I think the issue here is the tool, the kettlebel, which is not very well suited for maximum efforts. This is where the barbell shines as you already pointed out.
If I could snatch a 50 kg kettlebell I could make a decent post out of it. If I snatch a 50 kg barbell, everyone would think it was a warm up weight - and it should be. Now the muscles that move the weight in both cases are the same. Differences can be found in grip strength, overhead stability and anti-rotation, but in terms of power production it is the same. In the end it seems to me that GS athletes can snatch more weight for more reps.
I totally agree, though, on the point about books and training programs. Pavel is an outstanding writer and after reading his book one cannot else but start training.
North Coast Miller
Level 9 Valued Member
To my understanding there are several differences. The first is the actual muscles involved. GS snatch appears to have some variation as it is based more on the completion of the movement and some of the details are up to the competitor.
Overall the major groups involved are the same with changes in emphasis.
The biggest difference is the competition factor - 10 minute target range, putting the effort primarily into the range of lactic and alactic glycolysis. This really defines the GS technique, doesn't mean you can't use heavier weights for less time etc, but the technique has conservation and timing as a defining principle.
Overall the major groups involved are the same with changes in emphasis.
The biggest difference is the competition factor - 10 minute target range, putting the effort primarily into the range of lactic and alactic glycolysis. This really defines the GS technique, doesn't mean you can't use heavier weights for less time etc, but the technique has conservation and timing as a defining principle.
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