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Kettlebell GTG swings?

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@Mark Limbaga, I don't know; my gut tells me that GTG works with heavy things, so I think the practice needs to be tipped towards the strength side. I may be completely off-base here and it may work fine, but I have not yet heard of this being attempted and producing results, so it will be an interesting experiment.

-S-
 
More thoughts because there are lots of interesting variables here. E.g., if the goal is 200 snatches @ 24 kg in 10:00, does one GTG w/ a lighter or heavier weight or 24 kg? We know that occasional work with a heavier bell is good, and also occasional, higher-rep work with a lighter bell, but the bulk of the training should be with the competition weight. This is a change from a strength based approach where the weight used for GTG would almost certainly be lighter.

And if GTG for 24 kg snatches, then what else?

Let's take a hypothetical, but probably quite common, current max - let's say someone can do the 5:00 snatch test and get 100 reps right now. Take 50% of that and do 2:00-3:00 sets of 40 - 60 snatches each throughout the day, starting with 4 sets so that your single day equalled your test volume but spread out.

You'd test periodically, hopefully see an improvement, and revise the GTG sets upwards until, as you approach the final test day, you were doing 4:00 - 6:00 sets of 80 - 120 reps each, and reaching 400 reps per day on average.

I'm just thinking out loud here - I can see how it could work, but the real question is: is the trainee's technique sufficient to allow this volume of training without callus issues or other injury, and is the trainee's recovery ability sufficient to allow this kind of volume day after day and maintain good form?

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
I don't think the sessions are long enough for what needs to happen; just a guess on my part, but GTG is a strength protocol.

-S-
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As I understand it, GTG by definition is done several times throughout the day, daily.

As a strength protocol, how does this work without the 'recovery' time of 1-3 days for the strength to manifest itself through muscle recovery?

I personally think the recovery time has been greatly overrated, like breakfast being the most important part of the day.

My example is the prison yard guest. He doesn't follow any conventional wisdom. He lifts throughout the day, every day. His diet is relative crap. He have very limited, if any access to supplements and PEDs, and yet, he gets jacked.

So my direct question is, how does GTG work as a strength protocol when there is no 'recovery' time.

I apologize if I am the only one left who doesn't know this, or it's a stupid question.
 
Strength gains can be made through improved skill or increased muscle size. If training effort is low, little muscle recovery is necessary, and only enough time needs to pass for the nervous system to recover from the effort and be ready to perform it again.

We can walk 10,000 steps in a day, every day, apparently. The volume we can perform of any given movement will be related directly to its relative difficulty. The key to GTG is to make the effort significant enough to improve our skill while keeping it moderate enough to allow the effort to be repeated over and over.

The great gift of StrongFirst is its focus on the skill of strength.

-S-
 
Lew, GTG works by training the nervous system to tense the muscles harder, thus producing more strength, through frequent, flawless practice, without the trainee getting anywhere close to failure. As such, the need for lengthy periods of 'muscle recovery' is not so great, as GTG doesn't have you 'break down the muscle' like other protocols might. Pavel recommends at least 15 minutes rest between sets. Done right, this will completely avoid any soreness or need for days on end of recovery.

Regarding your prison example, said prisoners might get 'jacked', but GTG doesn't build strength through bulking up the muscles, it builds strength by training the nervous system to maximally tense the muscles, so that they can shift heavy weight regardless of their size.

It does seem strange to most people I've talked to about it, but honestly, just try it, it works. It works well. Very well indeed.

Hope I've helped somewhat, but read the Naked Warrior to learn more about it.

:)
 
I like to reiterate:
"grease the groove, or how to get superstrong without a routine" (Pavel, the naked warrior).
GTG is,....it rocks. There are a few guidelines, that are crystal clear. Bare bones practicing with high attention to detail. Waving volume and or intensity, patiently. No failure, no pain, a lot to gain. That is really an art to train this way.
 
Steve Freides said:
More thoughts because there are lots of interesting variables here. E.g., if the goal is 200 snatches @ 24 kg in 10:00, does one GTG w/ a lighter or heavier weight or 24 kg? We know that occasional work with a heavier bell is good, and also occasional, higher-rep work with a lighter bell, but the bulk of the training should be with the competition weight. This is a change from a strength based approach where the weight used for GTG would almost certainly be lighter.

And if GTG for 24 kg snatches, then what else?

Let's take a hypothetical, but probably quite common, current max - let's say someone can do the 5:00 snatch test and get 100 reps right now. Take 50% of that and do 2:00-3:00 sets of 40 - 60 snatches each throughout the day, starting with 4 sets so that your single day equalled your test volume but spread out.

You'd test periodically, hopefully see an improvement, and revise the GTG sets upwards until, as you approach the final test day, you were doing 4:00 - 6:00 sets of 80 - 120 reps each, and reaching 400 reps per day on average.

I'm just thinking out loud here - I can see how it could work, but the real question is: is the trainee's technique sufficient to allow this volume of training without callus issues or other injury, and is the trainee's recovery ability sufficient to allow this kind of volume day after day and maintain good form?

-S-
Click to expand...

Definitely a given that technique must be of a high level of precision..

perhaps, we can also apply the other "f" from GTG which is "fluctuating" by periodically uaing a lighter bell or one arm swings at least a size up comp/test bell?
 
@Mark Limbaga, my guess is that fluctuating the volume is the main variable to play with here. Studies have suggested - I think they were mentioned in the original kettlebell book by Pavel - that training with either lighter or heavier didn't help when trying to achieve a lot of reps with a certain weight.

One-arm swings with a heavier bell, OTOH, are a tried-and-true snatch assistance exercise, and usually done after a snatch session's snatch work is completed. I don't know how you'd figure that into a GTG protocol, though.

-S-
 
Mark,
Just speculating but for this purpose, I bet you would get a lot more mileage out of heavier bells than lighter or test size bells.

In training for the 5 minute certification test, I found working with heavier bells super valuable, although I did not use a GTG approach.

I did a low volume with 32kg, a lot of volume with 28kg, and used the 24kg to add additional volume when I started to get tired with 28.

28kg was a sweet spot for me, because it is light enough that I can get a good amount of volume with good form, but heavy enough so iit makes the 24 feel light. 32 is really too heavy for me to get much volume, especially without my form breaking down and putting the skin on my hands at risk.

Off the top of my head, here's a protocol I might try. It's based on an idea from an old article on DD, written by Ken Froese about a program given to him by Randy Hauer. Start with a bell where you can get 10-15 solid snatch reps rep arm. GTG mini-sessions of 4 sets, alternating arms. For each pair of sets, do a number reps that is 80% and then 40% of your working max for each arm. In other words, if your working max is 15/15, you would do 12/12/6/6.

Since I haven't test this, feel free to tweak the percentages. For instance, you could do 70%/50% or 60%/60%. You can also tweak the overall total, so instead of reps adding up to 120% of your max, spread over the two sets, you could just do 100% (and come up with an alternative split, such as 80%/20% or 70%/30%). For waviness, you can mix and match combinations session by session or day by day, and wave the number of sessions per day.

You can also mix the snatching with an A&A heavy swing protocol (one or two handed), snatching three days/week or alternating snatch and swing days.

After 2-4 weeks, test a new working max and adjust accordingly. Move up a bell size when working max gets too high with the current bell (subjective and depends on whether longer still fit your scheduling needs), and/or you get 10-15 solid reps with the next size up.

Although I don't think it had a lot of direct carry over to snatching the 24, I also think I benefitted from doing the VWC :15/:15 protocol with the 16kg, mainly because it help get my snatch form really dialed in.

Finally, although I think this GTG approach MIGHT help get you in the ballpark, most likely you would need a more specific tune up cycle to put you over the top.
 
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I was thinking more along the lines of doing 20/20 3-5 x a day to start and then adding reps/sets as time goes by. And of course waving the reps. Was also thinking at least one day a week spent on gtg heavy SW would be good as they have helped get me where I am. Thoughts gentlemen?
 
I definitely agree that for GTG swings to work, the minimum needed would be a 32 at least.

@Steve W. I think that plan can work you just need to tweak it to one's needs and limits.
 
Just did my first gtg SN set. 15/15 felt good and got my heart rate up nicely. Next set will be at 1pm.
 
I'm thinking I'll keep the daily volume at 200reps and just change the individual sets reps so some days practice sessions will be more frequent.
 
Steve Freides said:
Let's take a hypothetical, but probably quite common, current max - let's say someone can do the 5:00 snatch test and get 100 reps right now. Take 50% of that and do 2:00-3:00 sets of 40 - 60 snatches each throughout the day, starting with 4 sets so that your single day equalled your test volume but spread out.

You'd test periodically, hopefully see an improvement, and revise the GTG sets upwards until, as you approach the final test day, you were doing 4:00 - 6:00 sets of 80 - 120 reps each, and reaching 400 reps per day on average.
-S-
Click to expand...
If I was doing GTG for the 5 minute snatch test, I wouldn't take 50% of my snatch test total volume as a starting point. It would be of how many reps I could do with one hand switch with given weight.
Let's put it this way. I would probably take 28kg or even 32kg and test myself for maximum number of reps in one set and take 50% of that as a starting point.
Even dough doing 50 reps in one set x 3-5 sets a day sounds doable if one is doing 50 reps with multiple hand switch.
 
Steve Freides said:
Sasa, why?

-S-
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Because it would be the same like finishing the ETK with 75 reps total on each side and taking half of that as my GTG reps/set. It makes more sense to take 50% of what you can do in one set with just one hand switch.
Or, I would do 3-5 sets of 50 snatches a day (3-5 days a week), but it would be something like 10L, 10R, 10L, 10R, 5L, 5R. Sound doable for someone who can do 100 reps in 5 minutes.
 
@Sasa Rajnovic, the weight isn't heavy - ETK is a pressing program with a 1RM focus. Since we're talking about an endurance event here, I think different rules will apply.

A few folks are trying this - it will be interesting to hear how it works out for them.

-S-
 
Steve, I understand that. Doing 5 sets of 37 presses with ETK weight is probably not going to happen, but from the perspective of endurance and lactic acid tolerance it would be unreasonable for us to expect someone who did 100 reps in 5 minutes to do 5 set of 25L/25R with just one hand switch. (I think you didn't mention it has to be 25/25 but I got that impression, sorry if misunderstood your post)
 
Sasa Rajnovic said:
...it would be unreasonable for us to expect someone who did 100 reps in 5 minutes to do 5 set of 25L/25R with just one hand switch...
Click to expand...
Simply for reason that he/she didn't do those 100 snatches with switching hands only once and without putting the bell down.
 
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