Other/Mixed Has anyone had any luck with clubs for building strength?

[User 7569]

I got a pair of 10 pound clubs to help build grip strength for the work I'm currently doing training for. It involves holding a large water hose for an hour or so at a time, a few times a day.. so some serious grip there..

the clubs looked like a good tool for grip (arguably the aspect I train most) and I didn't want another kettlebell.

I'd like to hear about anyone's experiences with clubs for building strength, particularly in the grip.

Not super interested in mobility work with the clubs, which I understand is mostly done with 1 to 3 pounders. A lot of good info on this forum regarding clubs for mobility!

How did you use your heavy (5lb+) clubs? Did it help you build strength? How about your grip?

Thanks

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Max strength? Not really.
Strength endurance and some specific upper body strength? Yes.
Grip strength increases as a byproduct, just like it does with KBs, but if you specifically want to train your grip I'd choose other tools.

Keep in mind that grip training should include all of the variations. There a crushing & pinching, open or closed hand and max strength or endurance. All together 8 different qualities and those only include actual grip strength, not including wrist or forearm strength.
For example closing a gripper for 1-5reps would be an example for closed hand-max strength-crushing grip.
Clubbells will only improve your closed hand-endurance-crushing grip.
You talk about holding a large water hose for an hour. Does large mean the hose has a big diameter? If yes, the quality you're after would be open hand-endurance-crushing grip.
You could train that e.g. by holding a fat bar for extended periods of time.

I haven't trained with clubbells, just used them a couple of times and tried the Trial by Fire challenge once and just with 12lbs clubs instead of 15lbs. That's a serious gut check and noone who can complete it is weak in my book.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I have not used clubbells but did used to use lengths of black pipe to do slow drills when learning Escrima. Adding some simple footwork improves the utility of this sort of training.

My grip and forearms got huge, and upper body endurance improved somewhat. I learned quick not to overextend.

Is important to relax and activate the grip with a bit of rhythm as the movements allow, at least shift emphasis in the grip. In terms of striking movements one can put emphasis on the pinkie, ring and middle finger - on the follow through emphasize the index, middle and thumb.

 

[Steve W.]

I've used clubbells and maces very extensively over quite a few years.

I have clubbells from 15 to 45lbs. I mostly used the 15s when I first started, and now 20s and 25s are my working weights for most one handed exercises (singles and doubles), and 35 and 45lbs for two handed exercises.

I also have a couple of plate loadable maces that I usually keep loaded with 22.5 to 25lbs.

I love the clubbells and maces because they work in planes/ranges/joint positions that KBs and barbells don't, they're great for anti-rotation, reflexive stability and conscious rooting and bracing, the ballistic nature of many of the drills is very easy on the joints, and they work the grip differently than almost any other implement.

To expand on the last two points. A lot of the ballistic CB exercises are less about generating maximum power or muscling throught the range of motion and more about managing and directing the momentum of the weight, as well as bracing and stabilizing against that momentum. The patterns of tension and relaxation are different from other implements and generally relatively low stress. For instance, after severely tearing my rotator cuff playing basketball, and then during my rehab after surgery, I was still able to do a lot of the ballistic club swinging pain free, which was NOT the case for the traditional Indian club drills with light 1 and 2lb clubs.

Edit:
[I attribute the above to the way the momentum of ballistic movements carries the weight (and your joints) through part of the range of motion with your muscles relaxed, and it does so at a high speed. I believe this mediates any threat/pain response from the nervous system, and has a disinhibiting effect. Your nervous system learns that the range of motion is safe to move through and allow the motion without pain.

In my shoulder rehab, finding safe ways to move my shoulder fast but relaxed through a range of motion was a big key to restoring function. This is already a part of conventional rehab, with unweighted passive pendulum movements being one of the first things post surgical patients are directed to do. However, my therapists did not pursue this kind of motion beyond the very early stages of rehab so I created my own ways to do it (I cleared what I was doing with my therapists to make sure it was safe).

I could not disagree more with the idea that if you can't do something slowly and controlled, you shouldn't do it fast or ballistically.]

When you first start, however, be prepared for some crazy DOMS in your armpit area and the proximal area of the triceps. There are also some aspects of technique that are important to get right to avoid irritating the elbows.

I also find it easy to recover from even very large volumes of clubbell and mace ballistics. 32 repeats of 10 reps, on the minute (or 50 seconds) is a minimal volume that I'll throw on top of other training or do by itself on a recovery day. On weekends, I'll often do 100-200 reps of A+A style KB ballistics (sometimes a lot more, but most of my recent training is in that range), then do 400-600 total reps of CB and/or mace ballistics. A+A style works great for this. It's easy to fry your grip/forearms if you push sets too long. Keeping sets short allows me to do a lot of repeats and total volume and still recover well.

For the grip, CBs work the grip by pulling THROUGH your grip (like a vertical bar deadlift). It's sort of crushing grip, but not the same; it definitely has it's own feel. The grip also works very dynamically. There are patterns of tension and relaxation, and patterns of gripping harder and looser with different combinations of fingers, at different stages of each exercise.

Besides the ballistics, there are also a lot of grinding exercises that use the clubs' leverage -- which are fun, but not my main use.

 

[User 7569]

I've used clubbells and maces very extensively over quite a few years.

I have clubbells from 15 to 45lbs. I mostly used the 15s when I first started, and now 20s and 25s are my working weights for most one handed exercises (singles and doubles), and 35 and 45lbs for two handed exercises.

I also have a couple of plate loadable maces that I usually keep loaded with 22.5 to 25lbs.

I love the clubbells and maces because they work in planes/ranges/joint positions that KBs and barbells don't, they're great for anti-rotation, reflexive stability and conscious rooting and bracing, the ballistic nature of many of the drills is very easy on the joints, and they work the grip differently than almost any other implement.

To expand on the last two points. A lot of the ballistic CB exercises are less about generating maximum power or muscling throught the range of motion and more about managing and directing the momentum of the weight, as well as bracing and stabilizing against that momentum. The patterns of tension and relaxation are different from other implements and generally relatively low stress. For instance, after severely tearing my rotator cuff playing basketball, and then during my rehab after surgery, I was still able to do a lot of the ballistic club swinging pain free, which was NOT the case for the traditional Indian club drills with light 1 and 2lb clubs.

When you first start, however, be prepared for some crazy DOMS in your armpit area and the proximal area of the triceps. There are also some aspects of technique that are important to get right to avoid irritating the elbows.

I also find it easy to recover from even very large volumes of clubbell and mace ballistics. 32 repeats of 10 reps, on the minute (or 50 seconds) is a minimal volume that I'll throw on top of other training or do by itself on a recovery day. On weekends, I'll often do 100-200 reps of A+A style KB ballistics (sometimes a lot more, but most of my recent training is in that range), then do 400-600 total reps of CB and/or mace ballistics. A+A style works great for this. It's easy to fry your grip/forearms if you push sets too long. Keeping sets short allows me to do a lot of repeats and total volume and still recover well.

For the grip, CBs work the grip by pulling THROUGH your grip (like a vertical bar deadlift). It's sort of crushing grip, but not the same; it definitely has it's own feel. The grip also works very dynamically. There are patterns of tension and relaxation, and patterns of gripping harder and looser with different combinations of fingers, at different stages of each exercise.

Besides the ballistics, there are also a lot of grinding exercises that use the clubs' leverage -- which are fun, but not my main use.

Thanks for the warning regarding the doms..

I've got some excellent resources regarding technique, but I'm still stumped on club programming....

Sounds like it is exactly what I'm looking for...a tool I can use daily to increase strength endurance

What do you think of density training for the club? 5 swings on the minute for 20 minutes, them moving to 6 on the minute for 17 minutes, daily, for example? Or did you say a+a is your preference?

 

[pet']

Hello,

@Jak Nieuwenhuis
Maybe Scott Sonnon will interest you. He works - among other things - with clubs.

Kind regards,

Pet"

 

[Steve W.]

What do you think of density training for the club? 5 swings on the minute for 20 minutes, them moving to 6 on the minute for 17 minutes, daily, for example? Or did you say a+a is your preference?

I don't really think in terms of progression in my clubbell training, except for moving up in weight over the long term. I mainly think in terms of the total volume for the ballistic exercises. Here's an outline of what I do:

My main ballistic exercises are mills, 1-arm 360s (I think Scott Sonnon calls these shield casts) and 1-arm 10-2s (the same as 360s, but alternating direction each rep), and swipes (with 2 clubs). I do a lot of other drills, but as lower volume complementary training, like goblet squats in S&S, and not in any systematic way.

I mostly do A+A style (although perhaps not strictly A+A) sessions of repeats based on a timed interval, most often on the minute. The number of reps in a set is based on what I can comfortably sustain pretty much indefinitely. For me that is usually 10 reps. For mills, 10 reps on one arm then rest the remainder of the interval. For 360s, 10 reps (for 2 handed club or mace 360s I do 5 reps in either direction each set and alternate grips). For 10-2s, 1 rep in each direction 5 times. For swipes, 10 reps. Swipes can play by slightly different rules because the load/overall energy demand is higher (because you're using two clubs and driving the clubs with a hip hinge), and the local muscular fatigue is higher (since you are using both hands on every set so each hand gets less rest).

I define sessions by the total number of repeats or reps, and I'll mix and match exercises within a session. For instance, I might do 20 repeats of mills, 20 repeats of 360s, and 10 repeats of swipes (but the numbers vary a lot from session to session). I tend to do 2 handed work (with heavier clubs or maces) on separate days and just do 360s and 10-2s (plus what I believe Scott Sonnen calls pendulums).

With mills in particular, I mix in sessions of longer sustained sets, such as alternating arms for 10 reps each and repeating that 5x before resting (100 total reps). Then take a rest until relatively fully recovered and repeat the whole thing 5x.

The overall goal is to accumulate volume at a relatively low level of perceived effort and without much fatigue. In Dan John terms, it's very park bench.

 

[the hansenator]

I worked with the clubbells for a time several years ago. I really noticed the difference when using a machete. It became more effortless and easier to control.

 

[User 7569]

I've used clubbells and maces very extensively over quite a few years.

I have clubbells from 15 to 45lbs. I mostly used the 15s when I first started, and now 20s and 25s are my working weights for most one handed exercises (singles and doubles), and 35 and 45lbs for two handed exercises.

I also have a couple of plate loadable maces that I usually keep loaded with 22.5 to 25lbs.

I love the clubbells and maces because they work in planes/ranges/joint positions that KBs and barbells don't, they're great for anti-rotation, reflexive stability and conscious rooting and bracing, the ballistic nature of many of the drills is very easy on the joints, and they work the grip differently than almost any other implement.

To expand on the last two points. A lot of the ballistic CB exercises are less about generating maximum power or muscling throught the range of motion and more about managing and directing the momentum of the weight, as well as bracing and stabilizing against that momentum. The patterns of tension and relaxation are different from other implements and generally relatively low stress. For instance, after severely tearing my rotator cuff playing basketball, and then during my rehab after surgery, I was still able to do a lot of the ballistic club swinging pain free, which was NOT the case for the traditional Indian club drills with light 1 and 2lb clubs.

Edit:
[I attribute the above to the way the momentum of ballistic movements carries the weight (and your joints) through part of the range of motion with your muscles relaxed, and it does so at a high speed. I believe this mediates any threat/pain response from the nervous system, and has a disinhibiting effect. Your nervous system learns that the range of motion is safe to move through and allow the motion without pain.

In my shoulder rehab, finding safe ways to move my shoulder fast but relaxed through a range of motion was a big key to restoring function. This is already a part of conventional rehab, with unweighted passive pendulum movements being one of the first things post surgical patients are directed to do. However, my therapists did not pursue this kind of motion beyond the very early stages of rehab so I created my own ways to do it (I cleared what I was doing with my therapists to make sure it was safe).

I could not disagree more with the idea that if you can't do something slowly and controlled, you shouldn't do it fast or ballistically.]


Besides the ballistics, there are also a lot of grinding exercises that use the clubs' leverage -- which are fun, but not my main use.

After a couple of tries with the clubs I understand what you mean by patterns of tension and relaxation, you have to constantly play between tense and relaxed on most of the exercises depending on where the club is.. you have to crush your grip at the right moment or else you fry your hands and the club doesn't swing right..

fun little tool. I didn't get the scott sonnon club bells though. mine look more like little iron bowling pins

 

[User 7569]

Hello,

@Jak Nieuwenhuis
Maybe Scott Sonnon will interest you. He works - among other things - with clubs.

Kind regards,

Pet"

Honestly was a little wary of Sonnon at first and don't really want to buy his products (upon researching them a bit) but I found some great videos regarding clubs by him.

That guy Sonnon seems like a beast as well

 

[Steve W.]

I didn't get the scott sonnon club bells though. mine look more like little iron bowling pins

I really like Scott Sonnon's CST clubbells. I don't know which ones you have, but there seems to be one other main club design on the market that I've seen, sold by Onnit and other vendors. I haven't tried those, but two things I don't think I'd like about them are that they are shorter than the CST clubs for an equivalent weight, and the knob is much bigger. The shorter length is not a big deal, but a big part of the appeal of the clubs is the leverage factor and a shorter club reduces this. The knob strikes me as more problematic. You definitely need a knob on the end of the handle, but even the smaller CST knob sometimes interferes with my wrist position, so I wouldn't want the knob to be any bigger.

If you sign up for the Rmax email list, they often have sales with a 20% or more discount, which makes the price of the CST clubbells around the same or even less than the Onnit clubs.

Honestly was a little wary of Sonnon at first and don't really want to buy his products (upon researching them a bit) but I found some great videos regarding clubs by him.

Sonnon is kind of a weird dude. His marketing and personal presentation strikes me (and many others) as overly self-promoting in an awkwardly guruish way. And his instruction often seems to deliberately make things seem overly esoteric and complex instead of easily accessible. Nevertheless, I also find a lot of his material to be very useful and I've learned a lot from it.