Bodyweight How would you program "extreme isometrics"? (weird but hella interesting, I promise)

[Jason B.]

This is long, I know, but it's got some strength-training stuff you've probably never really thought about before.

This is a strange question because they go against Strongfirst's principles, but I'm a Strongfirst guy at heart and have no guidance on how to program these or work them into traditional strongfirst programming.

Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes. But they're more complicated than that because:

- they're not a true isometric... they're actually an eccentric, where you're pulling or pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the stretch and resisting against your body's end ROM

-you have to hold them with PERFECT FORM, not just sloppily hanging out

The supposed benefits of this are: correcting imbalances and pattern dysfunction (the logic is that isometrics aren't actually unmoving, the muscles are firing hundreds of times per minute, so doing it with perfect form is the equivalent of giving yourself hundreds of reps of practice in just a few minutes; also, these ever-deepening holds will also increase any limitations you have due to flexibility), unstoppable endurance, hypertrophy (I've seen this attributed to both Occlusion Training and mTor activation in something Christian Thibaudeau calls Eccentric Quasi-Isometrics), triggering any past trauma, deep calm (after you succeed in holding it for 5 minutes).

I have seen some of these promised results: I have made some incredible progress in cleaning up dysfunction (and finally realize what kind of strength is truly possible when your body works as a unit), I have most definitely been triggering my PTSD and teaching myself to work through it, and I've built muscle size.

(Side note: Pavel's breathing course has really helped me work through the trauma reactions that get triggered with this type of training. I hope to really get some control back over my sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. I could go down a long rabbit hole here, but it's crazy how similar strength training is to the exercises I've been given by therapists for my PTSD. I was reading the Bulgarian Manual by... Greg Nickols?... and he said that, in studies, whether or not Bulgarian training will crush you with it's extreme demands or take you to a place of incredible strength gains all comes down to whether or not you believe it will make you stronger or believe it will harm you. And this echoes what studies have shown in trauma recovery... it all depends on your mindset/perception/belief and whether your body kicks into its sympathetic [fight, flight, freeze or fawn] nervous system. I finally understand what belief in yourself truly means and why a certain type of person naturally excels at athletics. Or anything, really.)

ANYWAYS, that was a lot of babbling to say that I don't know how to program these. I keep getting to about 2 minute holds, then make a major breakthrough in my body working properly and fall back down to about 30-45 seconds and start the climb all over again.

My workouts look like this:

5 minute warm up

20-30 minute Exteme Isometrics work

30-40 minute of the Strongfirst Bodyweight course plus isometric deadlifts and squats

5-10 minutes of metabolic conditioning (I can probably ditch these for Maffetone-style aerobics on my off days)

My workouts are also not optimal by any definition because I'm basically cobbling together my own workout from various concepts. I've never seen an extreme isometrics workout laid out.

I want to keep the Extreme Isometrics at the beginning of the workout (even though everyone knows you're supposed to do strength work fresh -- I just feel these need to be my focus right now).

Should I do the Extreme Isometrics one day and the Strength work a few days later? Or heavy Isometrics day / light strength work and light Isometrics day / heavy strength work? I feel like the strength work is important to use the repatterning that the isometrics are unlocking. I literally cannot describe how crazy strong I feel now that my entire upper body is jumping into overhead pressing.

And how would you program your way to 5 minutes anyways? This really is skill training that just happens to hurt a lot, it's not hanging out sloppily and taking whatever shortcut you need to take to keep your body in the air for the required time.

Thanks in advance. Hopefully someone made it through this craziness and can offer some suggestions because I've stumbled across a really obscure training style that is doing great things for me, but I don't know what to do with it.

 

[Anna C]

Interesting thread, @Jason B. and I'm glad you're finding positive impacts relative to PTSD. Yes the breathing is powerful!

I don't have any answers for you but I wonder if you might find some useful information in the realm of yoga. Some styles and practices involve extended holding of poses.

 

[North Coast Miller]

This is long, I know, but it's got some strength-training stuff you've probably never really thought about before.

This is a strange question because they go against Strongfirst's principles, but I'm a Strongfirst guy at heart and have no guidance on how to program these or work them into traditional strongfirst programming.

Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes. But they're more complicated than that because:

- they're not a true isometric... they're actually an eccentric, where you're pulling or pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the stretch and resisting against your body's end ROM

-you have to hold them with PERFECT FORM, not just sloppily hanging out

The supposed benefits of this are: correcting imbalances and pattern dysfunction (the logic is that isometrics aren't actually unmoving, the muscles are firing hundreds of times per minute, so doing it with perfect form is the equivalent of giving yourself hundreds of reps of practice in just a few minutes; also, these ever-deepening holds will also increase any limitations you have due to flexibility), unstoppable endurance, hypertrophy (I've seen this attributed to both Occlusion Training and mTor activation in something Christian Thibaudeau calls Eccentric Quasi-Isometrics), triggering any past trauma, deep calm (after you succeed in holding it for 5 minutes).

I have seen some of these promised results: I have made some incredible progress in cleaning up dysfunction (and finally realize what kind of strength is truly possible when your body works as a unit), I have most definitely been triggering my PTSD and teaching myself to work through it, and I've built muscle size.

(Side note: Pavel's breathing course has really helped me work through the trauma reactions that get triggered with this type of training. I hope to really get some control back over my sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system. I could go down a long rabbit hole here, but it's crazy how similar strength training is to the exercises I've been given by therapists for my PTSD. I was reading the Bulgarian Manual by... Greg Nickols?... and he said that, in studies, whether or not Bulgarian training will crush you with it's extreme demands or take you to a place of incredible strength gains all comes down to whether or not you believe it will make you stronger or believe it will harm you. And this echoes what studies have shown in trauma recovery... it all depends on your mindset/perception/belief and whether your body kicks into its sympathetic [fight, flight, freeze or fawn] nervous system. I finally understand what belief in yourself truly means and why a certain type of person naturally excels at athletics. Or anything, really.)

ANYWAYS, that was a lot of babbling to say that I don't know how to program these. I keep getting to about 2 minute holds, then make a major breakthrough in my body working properly and fall back down to about 30-45 seconds and start the climb all over again.

My workouts look like this:

5 minute warm up

20-30 minute Exteme Isometrics work

30-40 minute of the Strongfirst Bodyweight course plus isometric deadlifts and squats

5-10 minutes of metabolic conditioning (I can probably ditch these for Maffetone-style aerobics on my off days)

My workouts are also not optimal by any definition because I'm basically cobbling together my own workout from various concepts. I've never seen an extreme isometrics workout laid out.

I want to keep the Extreme Isometrics at the beginning of the workout (even though everyone knows you're supposed to do strength work fresh -- I just feel these need to be my focus right now).

Should I do the Extreme Isometrics one day and the Strength work a few days later? Or heavy Isometrics day / light strength work and light Isometrics day / heavy strength work? I feel like the strength work is important to use the repatterning that the isometrics are unlocking. I literally cannot describe how crazy strong I feel now that my entire upper body is jumping into overhead pressing.

And how would you program your way to 5 minutes anyways? This really is skill training that just happens to hurt a lot, it's not hanging out sloppily and taking whatever shortcut you need to take to keep your body in the air for the required time.

Thanks in advance. Hopefully someone made it through this craziness and can offer some suggestions because I've stumbled across a really obscure training style that is doing great things for me, but I don't know what to do with it.

Honestly I don't know but will be following this thread. It almost sounds like Schroeder's extreme iso.

Personally I like to use a "max effort" with my isometrics and that cannot be held for more than about 30 seconds or slightly less.

Training at longer muscle lengths improves strength through the entire ROM, so that part is good. Also applying some form of load or resistance to force or attempt to force the exerting joint to open is also a good move.

I had the best results using iso either with longer holds 20 seconds on40 seconds off and followed within 48 hours with a HIIT session.

Also using 5-8 second pulses followed immediately with high speed movements in a similar movement pattern. Maintained most of my size and strength for over 2 months using only this protocol.

In short, I've never used isometrics as you describe, sounds interesting. A video or pics would be super helpful.

 

[Jason B.]

Interesting thread, @Jason B. and I'm glad you're finding positive impacts relative to PTSD. Yes the breathing is powerful!

I don't have any answers for you but I wonder if you might find some useful information in the realm of yoga. Some styles and practices involve extended holding of poses.

lol I've got that scheduled on my list of things to explore. Some people periodize their training, I periodize my recovery methods.

 

[Jason B.]

Honestly I don't know but will be following this thread. It almost sounds like Schroeder's extreme iso.

Personally I like to use a "max effort" with my isometrics and that cannot be held for more than about 30 seconds or slightly less.

Training at longer muscle lengths improves strength through the entire ROM, so that part is good. Also applying some form of load or resistance to force or attempt to force the exerting joint to open is also a good move.

I had the best results using iso either with longer holds 20 seconds on40 seconds off and followed within 48 hours with a HIIT session.

Also using 5-8 second pulses followed immediately with high speed movements in a similar movement pattern. Maintained most of my size and strength for over 2 months using only this protocol.

In short, I've never used isometrics as you describe, sounds interesting. A video or pics would be super helpful.

"It almost sounds like Schroeder's extreme iso."

Yes! That's exactly what it is! I've spent the last six months scouring the net for any information on his methods. I've devoured everything he wrote. Also, DB Hammer, Kelly Baggett, Jake Tuura, Tommy John and several other people whose names I can't recall right now. Some of them favoured shorter sessions, saying no one ever actually saw Schroeder's athletes hold them for five minutes, and some people (like Tommy John) promote the five minute holds for the repatterning and the trauma access.

The one thing none of them have talked about is how they actually program the holds. One person of the half-dozen whose posts I devoured said he had his athletes do ladders of 15, 30, 45 and 60 seconds, but he never had his athletes build up to 5 minutes.

I can do a heavy / medium / light thing with these holds, adjusting either the intensity of the hold (weighted lunge would be heavy, ordinary lunge would be medium, and lunge with rear knee on the ground but still contracting hard would be light) while building up tolerances for the longer sets or adjusting the hold times in a heavy/medium/light fashion.

 

[North Coast Miller]

"It almost sounds like Schroeder's extreme iso."

Yes! That's exactly what it is! I've spent the last six months scouring the net for any information on his methods. I've devoured everything he wrote. Also, DB Hammer, Kelly Baggett, Jake Tuura, Tommy John and several other people whose names I can't recall right now. Some of them favoured shorter sessions, saying no one ever actually saw Schroeder's athletes hold them for five minutes, and some people (like Tommy John) promote the five minute holds for the repatterning and the trauma access.

The one thing none of them have talked about is how they actually program the holds. One person of the half-dozen whose posts I devoured said he had his athletes do ladders of 15, 30, 45 and 60 seconds, but he never had his athletes build up to 5 minutes.

I can do a heavy / medium / light thing with these holds, adjusting either the intensity of the hold (weighted lunge would be heavy, ordinary lunge would be medium, and lunge with rear knee on the ground but still contracting hard would be light) while building up tolerances for the longer sets or adjusting the hold times in a heavy/medium/light fashion.

Evidence for the the value of sub-maximal effort isometrics is not very strong. To me the longest duration is about 30-40 seconds and even then there needs to be some outside force to calibrate against. Lacking something to gauge output, the longest practical hold is about 12 seconds.

 

[Benjamin Renaud]

I don't have any answers for you but I wonder if you might find some useful information in the realm of yoga. Some styles and practices involve extended holding of poses.

My Yin yoga classes were like that. Holding poses for 3-5 minutes. They were more akin to long stretches than isometrics though, depending on the poses obviously.

 

[bluejeff]

Extreme Isometrics are seven unweighted isometric holds at the most stretched position (dead hangs, lunges, push-ups, wall squats, good mornings, dips and bicep curls) that you train yourself to hold for 5 minutes. But they're more complicated than that because:

- they're not a true isometric... they're actually an eccentric, where you're pulling or pushing yourself deeper and deeper into the stretch and resisting against your body's end ROM

This is super interesting. I’m a bit hazy on how you’re supposed to contract at the end range for something like a dead hang... are you contracting shoulder flexors or extensors? For the biceps, is the contraction with straight or flexed elbows? Alternatively just point me to a detailed source...

Are the contractions meant to extend the end range or resist it...? Those are two opposing directions

 

[Jason B.]

This is super interesting. I’m a bit hazy on how you’re supposed to contract at the end range for something like a dead hang... are you contracting shoulder flexors or extensors? For the biceps, is the contraction with straight or flexed elbows? Alternatively just point me to a detailed source...

Are the contractions meant to extend the end range or resist it...? Those are two opposing directions

So, it turns out I've been doing things wrong. I just purchased a couble of webinars on Extreme Isometrics and it cleared things up. For the past six months I've had to cobble together information. (And I still have a ton of questions, but several important points have been cleared up for me.)

I was doing what Christian Thibaudau suggested after incorporating Jay Schroeder's teachings: pull yourself into the deepest stretch possible, keep pulling, and flex the stretched muscles as hard as possible as though you're going to lift yourself out. So, for the dead hang, I was pushing myself away from the bar as hard as I can to induce the deepest stretch possible and then pulling as hard as I could with my lats, even though I wasn't going anywhere because of the mechanically disadvantaged position. Eventually, as my lats tired, I'd sink deeper into the stretch (because I was still pushing) as my lats continued to flex. For the biceps I wasn't going to risk overextending my elbow, so I stretched them out by doing modified pelican curls. When they were at their most stretched, with a slight bend in the elbow, I would pull as hard as I could with my biceps.

Unfortunately, as of yesterday, I no know I wasn't doing Schroeder's methods. I was doing Thibaudau's bodybuilding method, which explains the growth I was seeing.

I now know that extreme isometrics are supposed to be trained as neurological exercises and that I wasn't putting enough emphasis on pulling myself deeper into the stretch. I would do what most people do: pull, hang out, pull some more, hang out, etc. The INTENT of pulling is what matters, so I need to pull myself in and keep pulling as hard as I can for as long as I can handle the pain and keep the pull happening. When the pulling intent weakens, it's time to end the set and try again because the neurology is fatigued and anything I do after that state is simply working the muscle.

There were also some detailed instructions on how to execute the techniques and I can't believe how much stronger my muscles are firing when done right, especially on the wall sits, lunges and good mornings. Legit painful cramps in my butt and hamstrings.

 

[bluejeff]

@Jason B. thanks, that makes sense.

I'm already a fan of loaded stretching, so this is up my alley. What's your weekly frequnecy like with this stuff?

Has this been helping you with the PTSD? I ask because I have had to teach my body how to go from sympathetic to parasympathetic as well.

 

[Jason B.]

@Jason B. thanks, that makes sense.

I'm already a fan of loaded stretching, so this is up my alley. What's your weekly frequnecy like with this stuff?

Has this been helping you with the PTSD? I ask because I have had to teach my body how to go from sympathetic to parasympathetic as well.

I was training Monday, Wednesday, Friday and doing a really long isometric workout on Monday and then doing easy, shorter maximum tension holds on the other training days. Monday was my all-out day.

Supposedly, the neurological aspect of Extreme Isometric training is really easy to recover from, so if I figure out how to do that properly then I'm going to try to go hard with them every day.

I;m not sure if it's helped my PTSD, but it's given me a really valuable tool to work with because I've never been able to trigger myself in a controlled setting before. My therapist struggled to have me access this stuff because I was just too locked up for it to happen. Turns out I can trigger the same response by just holding some really painful isometrics until my system freaks out. From there, I've been concentrating on breathing and reassuring myself that I'm safe. This has helped me practice lessening the threat response while doing isometrics, but I'm not sure if it has carried over into the real world. This is mainly because I've been in quarantine since Covid started and haven't had to go up against the real world much. I feel like it HAS to have helped, but it hasn't really been put to the test yet.

 

[bluejeff]

Supposedly, the neurological aspect of Extreme Isometric training is really easy to recover from, so if I figure out how to do that properly then I'm going to try to go hard with them every day.

This is interesting, because we are typically told that the high tension needed to perform bodyweight skills produces neurological effects that are harder to recover from.

This is a topic near to my heart as well. I have been recovering from a overactive sympathetic drive as well. What has helped me, both within my workouts and throughout my day, is to focus on nasal and belly breathing as well as paying attention to how much tension I am carrying in my shoulders and neck. On the topic of tension, it is kind of incredible to notice how when you focus on relaxing your face in particular the rest of your body will usually follow suit. I hope it helps with your PTSD.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I was training Monday, Wednesday, Friday and doing a really long isometric workout on Monday and then doing easy, shorter maximum tension holds on the other training days. Monday was my all-out day.

if you have a training log or otherwise are willing to post up what a week looks like (with still pics, vid or other reference material) it would be a huge help to understanding how these are supposed to be applied.

Related note, I found when doing full body overcoming isometrics I reduced frequency to 1x week. Two sessions was mentally too much for me to feel like I was really giving a "maximum voluntary contraction".

 

[Ricky01]

I tried these holds. They are just horrible and often for more mental.

I have done the standing balance for 6 minutes a side - not technically a extreme ISO but a good position to train.

The long lunge - my best is 3 minutes on each leg and it was disgusting. On the second leg (I had about a 5 minute break inbetween) my back leg was doing a crazy dance for the last 20 seconds before I buckled.

Bottom of pushup is a 2 minute PB....

Richard

 

[Ricky01]

@jasonb

I should have added that I have recently stopped pursuing max length time holds and have simply been holding the long lunge and bottom of pushup for 60 seconds each, 1-2 times a day.

The idea was to allow increased frequency (daily) and digging deeper into the idea of being 'ready for anything'.

Richard

 

[Jason B.]

if you have a training log or otherwise are willing to post up what a week looks like (with still pics, vid or other reference material) it would be a huge help to understanding how these are supposed to be applied.

Related note, I found when doing full body overcoming isometrics I reduced frequency to 1x week. Two sessions was mentally too much for me to feel like I was really giving a "maximum voluntary contraction".

here's a playlist someone compiled of extreme iso work (click to watch on youtube to find the Exteme Iso stuff -- this rebound stuff is other Jay Schroder training):



Here are some five minute holds by Tommy John and someone who works with him, so it's a good source:





I'm not sure if I could post anything I'm doing that would illustrate anything. I'm having a hell of a time trying to figure all this stuff out, from technique to programming.

 

[Jason B.]

This is interesting, because we are typically told that the high tension needed to perform bodyweight skills produces neurological effects that are harder to recover from.

I know! It's crazy listening to these guys, like they're from a different world. I've heard several people say the neurological training is easy to rebound from. I've heard several people say that movement compensation is what wears on the body during isometrics and eccentrics: if your form is correct and your body isn't trying to take over the movement with the wrong muscles, then the damage incurred will be low.

They're working with some high-level athletes, so I'll tentatively trust that they know what they're talking about.

It kind of makes sense to me that the 3-5 minute holds would be easy to recover from because at that point it's aerobic, but I don't think that's what they're referring to.

Another surreal, "they're from Bizarro world" experience was when I was reminded of Pavel's saying, "It's easy to wear someone out. It's difficult to make them strong." In one of the webinars I bought, Dan Fichter said, "Making people strong is easy. Making them fast is hard." And some of his people are absolute beasts in the weight room, so I guess he's backing it up.

 

[Jason B.]

I tried these holds. They are just horrible and often for more mental.

I have done the standing balance for 6 minutes a side - not technically a extreme ISO but a good position to train.

The long lunge - my best is 3 minutes on each leg and it was disgusting. On the second leg (I had about a 5 minute break inbetween) my back leg was doing a crazy dance for the last 20 seconds before I buckled.

Bottom of pushup is a 2 minute PB....

Richard

Did you notice any physical benefits when you reached 3-minute holds?

 

[Ricky01]

Did you notice any physical benefits when you reached 3-minute holds?

Hmm hard to say for sure as I was specifically testing anything.

A couple of things:
I had tested my reverse nordic range if motion (toes tucked under) and I got about half way back....after doing these for any length of time I found that I could suddenly and somewhat easily sit right back (bum onto feet) without feeling it nearly as much.

Also I have a longer term goal of being able to maintain 30 pushups into old age....my previous best was 2 sets of 50 with feet elevated (back in my 210lb rugby days).
I hadn't done any pushing work at all for weeks with the exception of bottom of pushup holds (usually max holds)....I genuinely expected that I would maybe get 30 and was really surprised to hit 40.

Can't say other definite results. I hadnt used them for too long.

I was using the pushup daily, but started alternating the lunge and standing balance as the lunge was mentally hard to do daily.
I understand the query about recovery. I don't think I could necessarily recover from max holds .... knowing that a max hold would meaning going until my knee dropped down the way.

Richard

 

[Ricky01]

Thinking about this further I think there is defintely neurological fatigue from this type of training.

I know there are individuals with huge amounts of experience using these that say they don't place a massive demand on the system....but in my experience they don't- until they do.

What in mean is that you can often do them for days on end and then suddenly the effect hits you and you feel floored for a few days....although you could make this case for any type of training.


What might be an interesting experiment is going all out with these (I think this is suggested by Tommy John, Jake Turra - though not 100 % sure) maybe once a week and treating it more like a hugh intensity session.

I am an OS coach so would happily spend my other movement practices during the week simply focusing on resets and 'how' I moved.

Food for thought.

Richard