Kettlebell Kettlebell AXE - general discussion

[Paotle]

Pavel, thank you very much for this interesting book.

Being a person with a lot of fast twitch (FT) muscles (11s on 100m FAT at 16yo, standing broad jump at 9ft,6inch), I have trouble recovering in 1 minute. Is this something you've experienced? Is it normal for such FT athletes (sprinter, olympic lifting, high jumper, wide receivers...) to need more rest, compared to endurance (slow twitch) athletes?

 

[Pavel]

What a great book, really interesting information. Thank you Pavel for the book.

Thank you, Niko!

I'm wondering how one would apply this to S & C training for amateur boxing. Should one use heavy bag and kettlebell training for the program? If so, how many times a week each?

2/week per exercise.

And If using kettlebells, would kettlebell jerks be better than swings for boxers or would swings complement heavy bag work better?

Do both; do not underestimate the importance of hip extension in punching.

You mentioned that similar training was used for boxers so I'm just trying to make this clear: when AXE is used with heavy bag work, would it work just like the kettlebell versions, meaning using the same structure for number of sets, adhering to stop-signs etc.? And one should punch for 80% of max power for around 4-10 (similar to 2-4-6 reps) seconds straight, then the remaining time do some relaxed shadow boxing?

Yes.

In summary, 2 days a week of each with AXE: swings, single KB jerks, heavy bag. If the boxing training gets too demanding, cut back.

 

[Pavel]

Tried the snatch approach this week with the 24, and then the 32. So sticking with the 32 and solely focussing on Axe.

Power to you, Tjerr!

 

[Pavel]

I have explained the long bag work thing to amateur boxers who were dismissive and pointed out that amateur fights are short so there is no need for prolonged bagwork. However I believe this is short sighted because by building your aerobic gas tank to such a level that you can absorb the S&C demands of a 15 round bout will have so many benefits and especially to someone who is fighting shorter bouts very regularly and needs to recover aerobically between them. You also kill a lot of birds with the same stone as you are training conditioning, power, roadwork and skill all at the same time. Close to a fight of course I would do a small amount of glycolytic peaking to mimick fight pace and conditions.

Smart training, Summerhouse.

To add to what you have said, the professional AGT approach is far healthier than amateurs' redlining the HR.

As you recall from Strong Endurance, pros fight at ~180BPM and amateurs at ~212.

 

[gdoan]

Glen, thank you for your kind words! Would you please post your review on Amazon?
----Review has been posted

Go for it. Do AXE when you are reasonably fresh, otherwise you have plenty of flexibility. It can be done at any time in the training cycle due to the low biological cost, all the way up to the race---this is what got me so excited about it!

Q&D will help your event as well.----thank you

 

[Xcal]

There is a paragraph about squats and deadlifts in the summary. I will follow this advice using goblet lunges. Please explain the nervous system requirement vs building muscle requirement in my context:
I met with an accident in Jan and broke my arm, recovered wholly from that and restarted training in April After much self-reflection I found that my muscles in my thigh along my groin were still sore from the crash => I have not yet done a full TGU. I am stuck on 1 knee with the KB comfortably overhead, but cannot stand up.
now: I am on a delat20 goblet lunge mission which is helping me rebuild my ability to standup from 1 knee

so, should I lunge before or after the AXE session. obviously not in the same session as I did the other day read the book, do, reread the book, redo! so much to learn, so much to relearn

maybe: this week I do it before, and next week after? it seems that I need a balanced approach.

 

[Matt604]

Great book, thanks Pavel! And what a bargain!

I just want to make sure I am understanding one point. The talk test stop sign is to ensure we are recovering to anaerobic threshold ("lactate threshold" in the book) and not to aerobic threshold, correct?

I ask because a lot of the early A+A threads talked about trying to recover down to AeT, which is lower and (at least for me) would require longer rests than allowed for in the AXE program.

 

[George Vrotsos]

Great book, thanks Pavel! And what a bargain!

I just want to make sure I am understanding one point. The talk test stop sign is to ensure we are recovering to anaerobic threshold ("lactate threshold" in the book) and not to aerobic threshold, correct?

I ask because a lot of the early A+A threads talked about trying to recover down to AeT, which is lower and (at least for me) would require longer rests than allowed for in the AXE program.

Piggy backing on the topic of the Talk Test. My breathing and heart rate match up with Snatches. I'm less experienced and efficient with Jerks. In my AXE Jerk training Tues I passed the Talk Test the whole time easily but my heart was thundering.

Didn't have the HR monitor on, so just what I could feel with my hand on my chest. Good to keep going at this point or is this a stop sign similar to the TT?


I'll do a few sessions with the HR monitor and see what comes up.

 

[Pavel]

Pavel, thank you very much for this interesting book.

Being a person with a lot of fast twitch (FT) muscles (11s on 100m FAT at 16yo, standing broad jump at 9ft,6inch), I have trouble recovering in 1 minute. Is this something you've experienced? Is it normal for such FT athletes (sprinter, olympic lifting, high jumper, wide receivers...) to need more rest, compared to endurance (slow twitch) athletes?

Paotle, it is normal; the solution depends on your goals. What are they?

 

[Pavel]

Great book, thanks Pavel! And what a bargain!

I just want to make sure I am understanding one point. The talk test stop sign is to ensure we are recovering to anaerobic threshold ("lactate threshold" in the book) and not to aerobic threshold, correct?

I ask because a lot of the early A+A threads talked about trying to recover down to AeT, which is lower and (at least for me) would require longer rests than allowed for in the AXE program.

Thank you, Matt. To below the AnT/LT.

When you recover too long, the aerobic metabolism powers down.

 

[james_1127]

3rd AXE session w/1HSW @40kg x6 OTM

My HR profile tonight vs the 1st session

I never got into the red zone once tonight... HR & body seems to be adapting nicely, will go 2 more sessions probably then bump the NR up

 

[Paotle]

Paotle, it is normal; the solution depends on your goals. What are they?

Thanks for your answer. My goal is cardiovascular stimulation for health purposes. I already go hiking and play tennis once a week.

 

[Bauer]

Pavel, thanks again for answering questions, and the splendid book.

When all things "cardio" are discussed, people tend to recommend sessions of at least 30 or even 45 minutes.

Of course, AXE is different and targets mostly perioheral mitochondrial and muscular adaptations. That being said, what would you answer to the objection that AXE cannot be a minimal effective dose for adaptations of the heart due to the shorter average session duration?

 

[Xcal]

There is a paragraph about squats and deadlifts in the summary.

@Pavel
I see your comment about the aerobic metabolism powering down when you take too long a rest. my medical aid requires me to train 30min minumum, so I need to manage the occasions when I reach a stop-signal too early (e.g. well before 25 minutes, with 6minutes for cooldown = 31min session).
say I'm doing EMOM 5x24kg swings and hit a stop-signal at 15 minutes -> I switch to 16kg for a few sets (or maybe 24kg x3 reps per set) -> back to 5x24kg by 20minutes and continue for my 31 minute practice.
what is your opinion of this? this situation occurs 1or2 per month for me (typically when I'm C+J+J/C+P+P 16kg)

I used to take an extra minute of rest to recover but switched to easier trics to maintain the EMOM.

and I'd like your response to the question I linked above as well please

 

[JR47]

@Pavel In Q+D you made a distinction between the effects of training fasted and non-fasted (with time of day also being a mentioned factor.)

What differences (if any) do: time of day, or fasted / non fasted training make to AXE?

Thankyou again. I am loving this protocol.

 

[D.McFarland]

@Pavel I am using AXE with the snatch, and already ruck 1-3 times per week. I have a secondary goal of Maintaining/slowly increasing strength in the 1 arm kb press, and and deadlift. My schedule only allows for training a few times a week. Is it advisable to add the dead and the press after axe sessions, or rucks for 3-5 singles Ala the minimalist deadlift article?

Thank you for this great book, and answering all of these questions, i have already left a review on Amazon!!

 

[korcun]

Lots of perfectionism and fear of not doing something perfectly in this thread. I think that many of the questions have already been indirectly answered in the book.
Thank you for the great book @Pavel - A great inspiration. I particularly like the big picture and the philosophical approaches. Just started the program after 12 weeks Q&D. I've chosen the Snatch because dropping the bell is no option in my courage corner.

 

[offwidth]

Great book, thanks Pavel! And what a bargain!

I just want to make sure I am understanding one point. The talk test stop sign is to ensure we are recovering to anaerobic threshold ("lactate threshold" in the book) and not to aerobic threshold, correct?

I ask because a lot of the early A+A threads talked about trying to recover down to AeT, which is lower and (at least for me) would require longer rests than allowed for in the AXE program.

The standard ventilatory marker of the talk test is correlation of heart rate and AeT or a blood lactate level roughly 2mMol/L .

 

[Paotle]

The standard ventilatory marker of the talk test is correlation of heart rate and AeT or a blood lactate level roughly 2mMol/L .

Yep. 100% sure. In the physiology and endurance domain, talk test is the aerobic threshold (2mmol/L), not anaerobic (4mmol/L). When you are in that zone (2 in 3 zones model, or 3 in 5 zones model) between the aerobic and anaerobic threshold it isn't possible to pass the talk test, even for olympic champions.

 

[HarryBergers]

Yep. 100% sure. In the physiology and endurance domain, talk test is the aerobic threshold (2mmol/L), not anaerobic (4mmol/L). When you are in that zone (2 in 3 zones model, or 3 in 5 zones model) between the aerobic and anaerobic threshold it isn't possible to pass the talk test, even for olympic champions.

Is that domain the domain of AXE, though?