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Barbell LBSQ Critique

But the way we squat bodyweight is not the way we squat with a load. Not to say a really heavy load.

Several things:
1) It doesn't need to be the same, it needs to have the same attractor states. You establish these with BW and build on them.

2) If you can't knock out a bunch of bodyweight squats with no issues (mobility, strength, endurance etc.) then you have no business loading it heavy. You're just going to strengthen a faulty pattern bc you're starting from an unbalanced base ("shallow attractor wells").

3) Once you can load the squat, you should find zero difficulty mimicking this pattern with bodyweight. So you can do bodyweight squats the same way you do heavy squats. This is entire concept of warming up - your form with the bar should be near identical to your form with 100kg. Take the bar away and it should be the same, just pretend there's a bar there (elbows back, tight back, etc.)

We do have favorable leverages etc. but I think they're best learned by doing lots of training on different (barbell) squats and after years, finding out what's really best for you. Something may be easier to recover from, something better for muscle building, something better for your powerlifting total, etc. No reason to paint everything with a single brush.

I'm not painting anything with a single brush. I'm arguing for a proper starting point that allows for a natural progression to other variations.*
With squatting, this is bodyweight. It might even be a regression from bodyweight (e.g. rocking).

I originally phrased it as "finding your natural squat pattern" as I didn't think "re-establish your attractor states" or "re-establish joint centration" was quite as catchy.

*From what I saw in the video, the OP doesn't have a solid base to build on. I doubt he could mimick that LBSQ technique & depth with just his bodyweight.
Which means he is using the weight of the bar to overcome tension AND create tension. This is how injuries happen.
 
It doesn't take years - it takes repetition. Repetition is the mother of skill.
If you've been deadlifting for a few years & still don't know what works best for you, then something has gone wrong.
It should be near automated at this point - not something you think about.
You likely need more frequency.



Thanks! But it just took a couple minutes each morning. Consistency is key.
I'd really look into Tim Andersons stuff (Original Strength) with regards to restoring your squat pattern.
Then start loading it.

Good luck in your journey.
Yes. Thank you!
 
If you have bad shoulders and you aren't a powerlifter or interested in being one, my suggestion would be to do high bar instead. Also, regardless of whether you do high or low bar positioning, having a "false grip" (thumbless grip) on the bar will likely relieve a little pressure on your shoulders and wrists.
Yes. I will certainly look into this.
 
Several things:
1) It doesn't need to be the same, it needs to have the same attractor states. You establish these with BW and build on them.

2) If you can't knock out a bunch of bodyweight squats with no issues (mobility, strength, endurance etc.) then you have no business loading it heavy. You're just going to strengthen a faulty pattern bc you're starting from an unbalanced base ("shallow attractor wells").

3) Once you can load the squat, you should find zero difficulty mimicking this pattern with bodyweight. So you can do bodyweight squats the same way you do heavy squats. This is entire concept of warming up - your form with the bar should be near identical to your form with 100kg. Take the bar away and it should be the same, just pretend there's a bar there (elbows back, tight back, etc.)



I'm not painting anything with a single brush. I'm arguing for a proper starting point that allows for a natural progression to other variations.*
With squatting, this is bodyweight. It might even be a regression from bodyweight (e.g. rocking).

I originally phrased it as "finding your natural squat pattern" as I didn't think "re-establish your attractor states" or "re-establish joint centration" was quite as catchy.

*From what I saw in the video, the OP doesn't have a solid base to build on. I doubt he could mimick that LBSQ technique & depth with just his bodyweight.
Which means he is using the weight of the bar to overcome tension AND create tension. This is how injuries happen.

Sorry, I have no idea what "attractor states" are.

A squat is a squat. The center of mass with 250kg on your back will no longer be the same as with bodyweight. Or 200kg on your front. Even a light goblet squat permits a significantly different form from bodyweight with a counterbalance.

I agree that a solid bodyweight squat is a preferable prerequisite to loaded squats. But many times a goblet squat is a better tool for learning how to squat than just bodyweight. The load is a great teacher.
 
Just something to think about..

Find what is safe first
Then find what feels good for reps and/or when you're going heavy (at times they can be two different things.
^This.

A squat is a squat. The center of mass with 250kg on your back will no longer be the same as with bodyweight. Or 200kg on your front. Even a light goblet squat permits a significantly different form from bodyweight with a counterbalance.

I agree that a solid bodyweight squat is a preferable prerequisite to loaded squats. But many times a goblet squat is a better tool for learning how to squat than just bodyweight. The load is a great teacher.

I should have specified I was referring to back squats in #3 of my response. I agree what you say about goblet squats & counterbalance.
However, I'd be interested if you can find any 200kg squat (back or front) that can't be closely mimicked with BW or a broomstick.
You'll have to find a very abnormal squat, I think.

I agree that a solid bodyweight squat is a preferable prerequisite to loaded squats. But many times a goblet squat is a better tool for learning how to squat than just bodyweight. The load is a great teacher.

Agreed. A light load can do wonders to improve movement.

I should also state that I'm not trying to have any argument here, I just find it incredibly odd that no one addressed the main crux of the OP - he isn't at a stage where he should be doing LBSQ if his goal is to get strong & big (which from his program choice, it is).
He should find a "more natural", safer style of squatting for him. That's how he'll reach his goals most aptly.
 
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However, I'd be interested if you can find any 200kg squat (back or front) that can't be closely mimicked with BW or a broomstick.
I never understood this idea. Low bar squats look very different from bodyweight squats. There is a different center of gravity, different leverages, different cues.

I know personally I can’t closely mimic my low bar back squat with bodyweight.
 
Sorry, I have no idea what "attractor states" are.
This will be a long post, and while I think its a very important topic to understand, its honestly more for my own re-edification than anything, but I hope its of interest to someone:

"Attractor State" is a term from dynamics systems theory, adopted by motor learning .
Per google:
"An attractor state is a stable state of organisation. Think of it as an individual's coordination tendency. For example, every time we move, our body organizes itself into an attractor state which enables functional movements to occur"

If your attractors are good you move good. If they're bad you move bad.
An example would be tension in the hip joint during a squat.
If the hip joint is an attractor, the relative tension between hip tissues should remain unchanged during movement.
This keeps the joint "centrated", or in the optimal position for movement (keeps the femoral head in proper position).

If this occurs - if this tension is present, then hip tension is an attractor - it stays the same while other variables change during squat patterns (e.g. ankle tension)
The stronger this attractor state is, the more you can change other variables during the squat pattern without affecting hip function (e.g. change of foot placement, bar placement, back angle, single leg, etc.)

If the hip isn't an attractor (or is a weak attractor), then the relative tension around the hip will change as you vary squat patterns.
For example, if you squat high bar and your hip is fine, but you change to low bar and your femoral head gets pulled anteriorly (pulled out of a "centrated" position).

And since the hip is an attractor during squats*, you should establish it before going crazy on squats.
Same for the humeral head in the shoulder.

An attractor is what establishes the feed-forward mechanism of movement.
For example, if you have the hip as an attractor, it dictates what moves during the squat and in what sequence to accomplish the goal.

If the ankle becomes an attractor, or the knee, this is bad. Other joints will move to compensate

You can find the attractor states of human movement by observing developmental kinesiology.
Babies are born with "completely" mobile joints - no tension.
They then develop tension from the diaphragm outwards (the diaphragm should be your main attractor).
They then gain control in their neck, establishing head position as a very strong (stable) attractor.
Then comes the hip & shoulder joints, again establishing strong attractors.
It progresses form there, but the attractors become less strong/stable and vary more.

You can "destabilize" an attractor through injury, repetitive patterns, psychoactive substances, and other things.

When a "normal" attractor gets destabilized, a new attractor must takes its place for the system to remain balanced.
This is what causes chronically impaired movement - establishment of an aberrant attractor, which becomes very strong.

A great way to think about this in terms of the "attractor well".
The stronger the attractor, the deeper the well, and the less likely it will get destabilized.
(orange ball = attractor)
attractor wells.png


If an attractor is has a shallow well (is weak) it is more likely to get "knocked out" of the well, and a new attractor put in its place.
attractor wells 2.png


All in all, this is what my previous recommendations are based on.
If anyone is more well versed in the topic than I am, please correct any mistakes (I'm sure there are bounds).
I'd also be interested in discussing with you more on this topic, perhaps in a dedicated thread or DM (its hard to find people outside of academia interested in this stuff - and most academicians don't train lol).

(the Original Strength stuff is a great example of this knowledge in action, though I don't know if Tim or Geoff is familiar with any of this theory as I haven't seen them mention it).

Okay, I'll shut up now.
 
I never understood this idea. Low bar squats look very different from bodyweight squats. There is a different center of gravity, different leverages, different cues.

I know personally I can’t closely mimic my low bar back squat with bodyweight.

Do you have a video of your low bar squat?
I can illustrate it for you. Minor things might be different, but nothing major
If you can't do it its a mobility issue, that's all.
 
Do you have a video of your low bar squat?
I can illustrate it for you. Minor things might be different, but nothing major
If you can't do it its a mobility issue, that's all.
Don’t have a good angle video but here is a recent one.

The big differences I see is bodyweight has more upright torso and hips go down. Barbell hips go back and loads the hamstrings a lot more.
 
I have learned to do all the kinds of squats I listed in my earlier message. I couldn't say that any of them feel "natural" particularly, with the possible exception of squatting down on the balls of my feet - that seems 'natural' to me, but none of the others do so I've made it my business to acquire some skill at each.

-S-
 

(For some reason video was treated as a short; and thus unable to embed here)



Code:
https://youtube.com/shorts/T2Kl9JhkjX0 
The above is presented as a short by default if it's less than a minute long.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2Kl9JhkjX0
URL manually reformatted.  Get rid of "shorts/<unique_video_ID>" and replace it with "watch?v=<unique_video_ID>"

I could have said this more simply:  get rid of "shorts/" and replace it with "watch?v=" and you'll be good to go.

@Abdul-Rasheed, while that is certainly an acceptable goblet squat, I recommend you use this movement, with prying, to get deeper over time while maintaining your upright torso posture. That, in turn, may help you find a better groove for your barbell back squat.


-S-
 
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I should also state that I'm not trying to have any argument here, I just find it incredibly odd that no one addressed the main crux of the OP - he isn't at a stage where he should be doing LBSQ if his goal is to get strong & big (which from his program choice, it is).
He should find a "more natural", safer style of squatting for him. That's how he'll reach his goals most aptly.
??
After looking at his goblet squat, I'm not seeing major mobility issues. He mentioned shoulder issues and I did suggest a false grip and that high-bar might be more suitable for his issues. What "stage" are you talking about exactly? I guess I'm just not seeing major dysfunction in what we've been presented. Imho, he just doesn't know how to squat low bar (yet). I think you can get "strong & big" from just about any kind of barbell squatting quite frankly, and preference can matter a lot.
 
I think you can get "strong & big" from just about any kind of barbell squatting quite frankly
Agreed. I learned to low-bar back squat first, high-bar back squat isn't something I ever practiced until I started working on my Olympic lifting because it's used there as an assistance exercise.

-S-
 
Don’t have a good angle video but here is a recent one.

The big differences I see is bodyweight has more upright torso and hips go down. Barbell hips go back and loads the hamstrings a lot more.

Man unfortunately I live in China & my VPN won't let me access instagram, so I can't see it the vid.
 
What "stage" are you talking about exactly? I guess I'm just not seeing major dysfunction in what we've been presented. Imho, he just doesn't know how to squat low bar (yet).
The OP says he's bee deadlifting for 3 years. His posterior chain should be plenty strong.
Yet he struggles with a 110lb low bar for 12 reps of what he believes was an AMRAP (it wasn't, watch bar speed & his apparent fatigue).
Something is very wrong here. If you've been training properly for 3 years, this isn't normal. He's much weaker than I'd expect.

The "stage" he's at is one where he should find a strong/safe squatting posture and add 100-200 lbs to it.
Then revisit the low bar squat and other variations (or play with light loads on off days).
Doing that is going to add more progress to all other squat variations despite no specific work.
This is the "stage" he is at and is in line with his goals*.

I never said anything about a dysfunction, major or minor. I said he shouldn't be low bar squatting.

I think you can get "strong & big" from just about any kind of barbell squatting quite frankly, and preference can matter a lot*.

Of course I agree, but you all seem to be missing my point.
He's attempting to do AMRAPs with a terrible squat pattern and none of you have corrected him on this point.
WHY?

Is training to failure not dangerous enough already without doing it in an unstable pattern?
You're putting the cart before the horse IMO.

None of you were at all curious as to "why" he is low bar squatting, and none of you asked.
You just proceeded to answer a question without recognizing that he was asking the wrong question.
He gave plenty of hints to this: "i'm doing GreySkull", "i'm doing AMRAPS", "I'm learning from starting strength"
Again, you were putting the cart before the horse IMO.

If the OP had asked:
"Here's my low bar AMRAP set. Is this a good idea?"
What would your advice have been?

*
we've already established his goals are getting bigger and stronger, not indiscriminately getting better at low bar squatting. So while "preference matters a lot", his preference appears to be "getting bigger and stronger" not "low bar squatting", and that is why my advice was given.
 
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The OP says he's bee deadlifting for 3 years. His posterior chain should be plenty strong.
Yet he struggles with a 110lb low bar for 12 reps of what he believes was an AMRAP (it wasn't, watch bar speed & his apparent fatigue).
Something is very wrong here. If you've been training properly for 3 years, this isn't normal. He's much weaker than I'd expect.

The "stage" he's at is one where he should find a strong/safe squatting posture and add 100-200 lbs to it.
Then revisit the low bar squat and other variations (or play with light loads on off days).
Doing that is going to add more progress to all other squat variations despite no specific work.
This is the "stage" he is at and is in line with his goals*.

I never said anything about a dysfunction, major or minor. I said he shouldn't be low bar squatting.



Of course I agree, but you all seem to be missing my point.
He's attempting to do AMRAPs with a terrible squat pattern and none of you have corrected him on this point.
WHY?

Is training to failure not dangerous enough already without doing it in an unstable pattern?
You're putting the cart before the horse IMO.

None of you were at all curious as to "why" he is low bar squatting, and none of you asked.
You just proceeded to answer a question without recognizing that he was asking the wrong question.
He gave plenty of hints to this: "i'm doing GreySkull", "i'm doing AMRAPS", "I'm learning from starting strength"
Again, you were putting the cart before the horse IMO.

If the OP had asked:
"Here's my low bar AMRAP set. Is this a good idea?"
What would your advice have been?

*
we've already established his goals are getting bigger and stronger, not indiscriminately getting better at low bar squatting. So while "preference matters a lot", his preference appears to be "getting bigger and stronger" not "low bar squatting", and that is why my advice was given.
Dude. I don't know what you see so wrong in his form. He is good to go for squatting low bar and working on his technique as he improves.
The depth can be fixed by squatting to the pins. The neck position - eventually, by putting a marker on the floor or on the wall, and looking at it. He would be better of course by squatting 3x5, or maybe doing Starting Strength instead of Grayskull.

Consider this: getting stronger by squatting, and presenting perfect squat mechanics - those are 2 different goals.
People learn in the process of doing things. From what I have seen - he is good to continue and learn.

Also - I do not know about the Grayskull (for what I care, all the stuff like Stronglifts, Grayskull and so on are just rip-offs from the Starting Strength). But - if he would be doing Starting Strength, he would be low bar squatting. Period. Unless he cannot do it. And - of course he would be on another forum.
 
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