Barbell Making the most of 2 days worth of gym equipment to build mass: programming?

[solarbear]

Might just pick a basic move for each body part and do 3 sets of 8 with minimum rest. Maybe start with 2 sets of 8 for the first 2 weeks and try for a third when you feel ready. It is a proven formula similar to the old Gironda workouts:

Leg Ext, Leg Curl, Front Squat, SLD, Favourite Dumbell Press, Pull/Chin Up or Pulldown, Rear Flye, Curl, Tri Press Downs, Ab Wheel

 

[Smau6785]

Sir, you have just killed all the fun of hypertrophy related: optimization, frequency, range of motion, Tonka Ali, body fat percentage etc etc discussions …

I head that Turkesterone works perfectly for hypertrophy.

 

[Smau6785]

One could select the “tough” option to up the volume a bit to compensate for the “lost” volume. An option to consider if you can handle “extra” load generated in those two sessions.

An other alternative could be to select the “easy” option and try to keep three sessions in… I did not look in detail but the volume might not be too off in between these two ways….

Yes, that's the idea, I ran it with the "tough" option and I could manage just fine (also found that running the HFrontSquat session on Weds and the MFrontSquat session Thursday on week 6 was absolutely fine despite the 70+ reps accumulated), so I think all in all, I might stick to that. Could also compress 2 sessions, since the H lifts won't add too much volume and could be paired up with their L counterpart a-la dropset:
D1: HSquat + LSquat / M press / Lpull (+H pull if BTS4)
D2: HPress + Lpress / M pull / MSquat (+H hinge if BTS4)

 

[Smau6785]

Lots of good suggestions, thanks folks! Forgot to mention I have prior barbell experience! I'm also thinking about a simple 2 days of 5x5s to get my strength up and add some accessories at the end like somebody suggested, and make it into a pure strength block

Damn though, DJ's ABC book came out and 2 days of BB clean and presses, squats and curls sound like a dream workout

 

[LukeV]

Yep.

This works well up until you hit 2 / 3 / 4 plates on the Big Three.

After that, you'll probably need to readjust to add more volume, but most people never even get there.

That's the truth. It will get 90% of the people 100% to where they're going to be. Which isn't Mr Olympia

 

[puddleduck]

I think folk need to figure out their own volume and frequency but adding more isn’t a panacea when hypertrophy dries up.

If the aim for the two sessions is literally mass, I think some of the named workouts here (eg edt) would be a very ineffective approach. Not to say they won’t yield any impact but you’re already doing a lot of fatigue inducing work and you’d be adding sessions that chased yet more fatigue at the expense of intensity. EDT to my mind is essentially a strength endurance thing, despite how it was originally packaged. Good fun in the short term tho.


Ball park figures to start, I’d aim to hit 10 sets a week, (per body part) working in a rep range you enjoy taking sets near to, but not right to failure. Probably slightly better to use a lowish rep range to minimise fatigue (eg 4-8) but if you love high reps then do what you love as you’ll likely get better results.


You can then titrate the volume up or down depending on if you’re observing progressive overload over time. The 10 set recommendation sounds arbitrary but is a recurring figure (10-20) in credible well structured studies that use meaningful intensity.

If you prefer free weights, you can prob hit these guidelines using one of Jim wendlers two day plans. Choose exercises with overlap to avoid the need for a two hour session and consider whether you need as much volume for lower post chain if you’re swinging a kb a couple of times a week

 

[Steve Freides]

PTTP - the Russian Bear option will work for mass building. You drop another 10% off the bar after the drop off set and you keep doing sets of 5 OTM or OT90s until fatigue. I ran this for four weeks with overhead presses and zercher squats and my quads and shoulders definitely blew up.

I explained this to one of my sons when he was in high school. He tweaked it a little but followed the basic template - I think his backoff sets were sets of 7, not sets of 5 - and made great "gainz" with it in terms of adding muscle to his arms and shoulders. If memory serves, he trained this way twice a week.

I am happy it worked for you. I would not recommend it.

I'm interested to hear more about this. Obviously not everyone likes every program, curious to hear of your experiences here, @John K. Thanks.

-S-

 

[John K]

I'm interested to hear more about this. Obviously not everyone likes every program, curious to hear of your experiences here, @John K. Thanks.

Of course Steve! I've shared a little about what I've done before in another thread. I really enjoyed the program, but I did not get stronger or bigger using the "Russian Bear" version of PTTP. My "work capacity" went through the roof - and by that I mean my ability to keep doing sets, it almost became like a mover moving boxes all day. The endurance under load developed. But, again, I did not see meaningful hypertrophy, especially when compared to other programs I've run (or built).

It could be I was not eating enough to support that growth, but I do not track my nutrition like I track my training and so don't have something to go back and consult. If I recall correctly, during the time I ran it as described in the above link, I was usually in the 205-210lbs range.

I think I should probably also say that my training philosophy does not "fit well" with "two lift" minimalism, so I am biased against recommending that for most people without good reason to suspect that they will prefer the simplicity of something like that. Part of why I stopped PTTP-RB was because I wanted to incorporate more exercises in my training plan than deadlift and clean-and-press (and because I wanted to get Jacked and this didn't seem to be helping).

 

[Steve Freides]

@John K, thanks. I've often likened hypertrophy to baking - you have to follow a recipe otherwise it doesn't work. (This is a thing among people who cook, I've been told: creative types cook, but bakers follow directions.) FWIW, I have added a couple of pounds of muscle to my frame over the last year or two - I know my personal recipe, and frankly it's easier for me than most because I'm small to start with it so there is no boundary-pushing involved, e.g., bench press and squat regularly, eat enough, and my upper body grows. (It was not much fun making weight for my recent meet this time because I'm a little bigger than I used to be.) But I know that most people who use the word "hypertrophy" are after much larger gains than I am or ever have been, and that's a different kind of cake with a different recipe, a flatbread vs. soufflé for of thing.

-S-

 

[John K]

But I know that most people who use the word "hypertrophy" are after much larger gains than I am or ever have been, and that's a different kind of cake with a different recipe, a flatbread vs. soufflé for of thing.

This is a very good point Steve. One person's idea of "getting bigger" is not the same as another's.

 

[the hansenator]

I really enjoyed the program, but I did not get stronger or bigger using the "Russian Bear" version of PTTP. My "work capacity" went through the roof - and by that I mean my ability to keep doing sets, it almost became like a mover moving boxes all day. The endurance under load developed. But, again, I did not see meaningful hypertrophy, especially when compared to other programs I've run (or built).

Actually, this sounds interesting to me.

Not that I'm trying to avoid hypertrophy, but it's 3rd or 4th on my priority list. It seems like it doesn't take much to tire me out so I wouldn't mind building a bit of work capacity.

 

[Smau6785]

@John K and @Steve Freides thanks both for sparking the convo! A bit more info about me 165cm x 65-67kgs. I'm not after being as wide as the doorframes of our house (that would be a problem.)

I do like many of us here, enjoy taxing my body with heavy loads. I've never had proper muscle gains as I've had with BTS3/4 and 2 back to back runs of DFW. Complexes, regardless of how GN calls them, always shrunk me down. The reason why I've over the years turned to minimalism is because, over the years, my head turns around when it sees 10 supersets of 2-3 exercises with weird names and different sets/rep schemes to be done 3x week. A1 3x5 superset with A2 5x8-12 RPE9 to me is just confusing and non appealing. I'd rather do 2-4 things and do them well and hard than 15 and "bad". Plus, I need to know I can do things. Meaning: if I head to the gym and the stuff I need to use is not available, it frustrates me, which increases as the number of apparatuses/exercises etc increases

 

[Steve Freides]

@Smau6785, if you'd had success with BTS and DFW, why not just keep running those?

-S-

 

[Smau6785]

@Steve Freides I'll most likely rerun BTS with Barbells at this point and will find a way to slot in 2 extra days of swimming (I think at this stage it feels easier to try to convince my fiancee to swim on Tue/Sat and keep Mon/Weds/Fri for weights, although not sure what "easier" implies... might need to pick up the guitar and serenade her)

 

[John K]

The reason why I've over the years turned to minimalism is because, over the years, my head turns around when it sees 10 supersets of 2-3 exercises with weird names and different sets/rep schemes to be done 3x week. A1 3x5 superset with A2 5x8-12 RPE9 to me is just confusing and non appealing. I'd rather do 2-4 things and do them well and hard than 15 and "bad".

You are looking at two extremes. The opposite of both is something much more in between either of that. As I showed in my suggested program. Do what you want and what you enjoy and what you think will get you the results you are after, but the options aren't "minimalism" vs "maximalism."

Plus, I need to know I can do things. Meaning: if I head to the gym and the stuff I need to use is not available, it frustrates me, which increases as the number of apparatuses/exercises etc increases

This is part of being in a gym. It is part why I'm not in one. But - this problem doesn't disappear by only doing a limited selection of exercises, unless you are using equipment that is never used. It can actually be made worse if that equipment is being used and you're only doing 2 things.

 

[mar2safety]

I explained this to one of my sons when he was in high school. He tweaked it a little but followed the basic template - I think his backoff sets were sets of 7, not sets of 5 - and made great "gainz" with it in terms of adding muscle to his arms and shoulders. If memory serves, he trained this way twice a week.

I did exactly this, twice a week. I did the prescribed sets of 5, but sets of 7 sounds intriguing. I was very diligent in stopping the session when my form started to erode; I erred on the side of caution. When I was able to do 12 back off sets, I added 10lb to all zercher sets, or 5lb to overhead press sets.
The second time I ran the Bear, I started each back off set OTM. It did not take long before I was too gassed to start another set.

 

[Ben Strong]

@Steve Freides I'll most likely rerun BTS with Barbells at this point and will find a way to slot in 2 extra days of swimming (I think at this stage it feels easier to try to convince my fiancee to swim on Tue/Sat and keep Mon/Weds/Fri for weights, although not sure what "easier" implies... might need to pick up the guitar and serenade her)

Perhaps this is helpful, perhaps not. I was running Fabio's BtS Minimalist shortly after our child was born and cut it back to 2 days a week most weeks with 2 additional days of zone 2 rowing or biking for cardio. Sometimes I would sneak in a third sessions on weeks where I had more time. I still had good results from the program. I believe this is probably due to the fact that it's a full body routine each session.

 

[LukeV]

In my 20s I was both saved and blown away by Stuart McRobert's 'Brawn'. McRobert challenged the Schwarzenegger style of programming with an emphasis on smaller numbers of exercises, limited sets, staying away from failure etc. When I first read it, I couldn't believe anyone could build muscle that way but I put it into practice and made the best gains of my life. I'd been beating myself up on high volume, multi-exercise, 'blast the muscle' type programs. You know: bench, overhead, decline and incline press, multiple sets, close to failure. It was madness! With hindsight, my body was primed for growth but I wasn't giving it a chance. I switched to one exercise per bodypart and increased the rest days and grew like a weed. My friends accused me of being on steroids, which I definitely wasn't (at that stage ). That was how big the improvement was.

 

[Dydo]

In my 20s I was both saved and blown away by Stuart McRobert's 'Brawn'. McRobert challenged the Schwarzenegger style of programming with an emphasis on smaller numbers of exercises, limited sets, staying away from failure etc. When I first read it, I couldn't believe anyone could build muscle that way but I put it into practice and made the best gains of my life. I'd been beating myself up on high volume, multi-exercise, 'blast the muscle' type programs. You know: bench, overhead, decline and incline press, multiple sets, close to failure. It was madness! With hindsight, my body was primed for growth but I wasn't giving it a chance. I switched to one exercise per bodypart and increased the rest days and grew like a weed. My friends accused me of being on steroids, which I definitely wasn't (at that stage ). That was how big the improvement was.

Many people have made significant progress with his programs. Even I myself am currently training in a way that is very close to his advice, especially from his latest articles that I have read. But at his own discretion, not because he said so.
However, I am extremely suspicious of a guy who is so popular, a publisher of bodybuilding books, but doesn't have a single picture of him to show what he has accomplished with his own body. And if the results were not good, with what argument did he dare to publish books.

 

[LukeV]

Many people have made significant progress with his programs. Even I myself am currently training in a way that is very close to his advice, especially from his latest articles that I have read. But at his own discretion, not because he said so.
However, I am extremely suspicious of a guy who is so popular, a publisher of bodybuilding books, but doesn't have a single picture of him to show what he has accomplished with his own body. And if the results were not good, with what argument did he dare to publish books.

I don't think anyone has won Mr Olympia training like McRobert suggested but it was a book for the silent majority, who were never going to win anything anyway and were being messed up by programs promoted by the elite 1% who were also juicers.