all posts post new thread

Kettlebell Navigating through the StrongFirst KB universe

Bauer

Bauer

Level 8 Valued Member
In this classic article, Dan John proposes a certain path through the StrongFirst KB universe
www.strongfirst.com

Things Are Going So Well, Help Me Screw It Up, Part II | StrongFirst

We should use performance standards to dictate when new skills are introduced. Follow the path laid out by Pavel. Let’s take a look at how this works.
www.strongfirst.com
  1. Patterning of TGUs, Swings and Goblet Squats
  2. Simple & Sinister to Simple (maybe Timeless Simple only)
  3. ROP to 1/2 BW press and Snatch Test
  4. Attacking Solid/Sinister
  5. Double Bells: e.g., Total Tension Complex
I think this makes a lot of sense. Some might argue that double bells could be introduced earlier. However, with some new programs out there, there are even more options. In my mind, it lays out like this:

Phase 1: Building a base (and a basic house on top of it)
Beginner to intermediate
With a single set of 16, 24, and 32 kg a gentleman could go this route:
  1. Swings and Getups to at least 40% of Bodyweight (or Simple goals)
    1. Timeless Simple OR
    2. BJJ Fanatics Plan (Strong Endurance)
  2. Clean and Jerk to 40% of bodyweight with a single bell (BJJ Fanatics Plan A and B)
  3. ROP, at least to a 32 kg press and 24 kg snatch test for males
  4. Specializing a little in the C&P or the Snatch
    1. The Giant, working up to doing it with a single 32 kg
    2. Q&D 044 or A+A Snatches
I guess for ladies the same could apply, probably with bells from 8 to 24 kg in 4 kg jumps.
Obviously, you would need to learn the following moves before embarking on any of the plans:
  1. Swings, Get-ups, Goblet Squats
  2. Clean and Jerk (with Push Press and Long Push Press in the progression)
  3. Clean and Press, Snatch
--
Phase 2: Specialization: Strength and/or StrongEndurance
Intermediate to advanced
After phase 1 (which could last years) one would need some heavier bells, double bells - or a barbell.

The options are manifold: You could introduce doubles with one of the following plans:
Or you could spezialize in StrongEndurance plans like
  • Q&D with either Swings + Pushups (or Viking Push Press), or Snatches
  • C&J as doubles or singles according to the BJJ Fanatics plan
  • Simple and Sinister to Timed Simple - and/or to Solid or Sinister
  • BJJ Fanatics Swings & Getups plan (A+A style)
Somewhere along the way could probably also introduce Strength Aerobics for a while (standalone) or as an add-on to Simple and Sinister. Same with Naked Warrior. And of course you could start a Barbell Journey, probably starting with PTTP, Vodka & Pickles or Daily Dose Deadlift.

Somewhere along the road one could settle for 2-3 plans to rotate, like A+A, S&S, Q&D, PTTP

Occasionally one could go for variety, for example with ETK+ or Total Package Template. Or one could try a peaking plan, for example for the TSC or for hypertrophy. Of course there are a lot of other plans for the decades ahead by Geoff Neupert, Fabio Zonin, and others. I am actually looking forward to more options coming out in the future (Strength Aerobics by @Brett Jones for example, or ROP 2.0).
--
Just wanted ot put it out there. If you have any suggestions or see it differently, I am happy to hear your thoughts. Personally I am still at Phase 1/Point 1 and will probably switch to the BJJ Fanatics plans over the course of the year.
 
Last edited:
Base:
The hip hinge, the get up and the goblet squat from SnS
The bracing and tension skill from Naked Warrior.
The deadlift from PTTP.
Basic calisthenics like push up, hanging, row, pull up, handstand.

Else
I don't know, I have no clue
 
I still believe in this flowchart when unsure

S and S
Rite of passage
From here you can go giant 1.0 single if you wanna continue your single bell journey or go to kb strong if you want to learn doubles

After these it all depends on the goal of the trainee what the next 3-4 plans will be
 
@Bauer, my recommendation would be for everyone to read S&S and Q&D, then evaluate what's best for them based on their goals. If just general fitness, S&S until Timeless Simple. If training in support of another sport, perhaps figure out a way to work Q&D in there next. But after that, as @Mark Limbaga said, I think we'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish.

-S-
 
Steve Freides said:
@Bauer, my recommendation would be for everyone to read S&S and Q&D, then evaluate what's best for them based on their goals. If just general fitness, S&S until Timeless Simple. If training in support of another sport, perhaps figure out a way to work Q&D in there next. But after that, as @Mark Limbaga said, I think we'd want to know what we were trying to accomplish.

-S-
Click to expand...
That is a good point. My idea was to use basic StrongFirst programming in a minimalist way, i.e. getting the most out of 3 bells with time-tested programming.
 
I feel like there's a fork in the road once the Timeless Simple goal is reached. Rather than going down the path of ROP (for example), I chose Q&D. Power-based training has been a game-changer for me, but I don't think I would've benefitted much from this decision if I was unable to meet the 32kg swing standard in the first place.
 
Bauer said:
That is a good point. My idea was to use basic StrongFirst programming in a minimalist way, i.e. getting the most out of 3 bells with time-tested programming.
Click to expand...
I think we still have the question of, "What else will you be doing?" to answer. My minimalist S&S - if we could even call it that - is a few, very light getups 2 or 3 times a week, and 20-80 swings - often 20-40, less often 60-80 - another few days a week because, after I do those things, I'm on to the strength training with a barbell that is my focus. If I didn't train as a powerlifter, I'd be much more likely to follow a minimalist program by the book and do, e.g., getups and swings in greater quantity and frequency.

-S-
 
I've always felt I made my best progress mentally doing 4-8 week programs. 12 - 16 weeks max. Don't be a program hopper but change after a few weeks. Escalated Density Training is perfect for this. Because it gets to a point where you can only do so many reps after a few weeks. Then reset or do something else. Same with 40 day program.

I know Steve likes the ROP in a 12 or 13 week training phase which is good. Running the ROP for 6 -12 months or S + S gets boring on the mind. I don't buy the it's boring, deal with it. When I did 5/3/1 what kept it interesting was changing the assistance templates.

90% of the people on here, myself included will NEVER get the 1/2 bodyweight press nor 200 snatches. Maybe if I was 30, sure, but at 52, ain't gonna happen. I need to do it with a 44kg and I can't press the 40. 36 I maxed out at.

Once you get proficient with singles, and that shouldn't be more than 3 months, max if you are training correctly, doubles can and SHOULD be introduced. I like where you run doubles programs for 4-8 weeks, then switch to a singles program.

At this point my goals are to : 1. Find programs that are interesting and will challenge me. 2. COMPLETE them, to me that's a badge of honor in regard to having the discipline. 3. DON'T GET HURT.

Finding programs that interest YOU is important. Because it will help you stick with it. There are some on here, I have zero interest in doing. Because of this, I don't do them as I know I will never finish them. I like complexes and chains. I like doing heavy doubles work. I also enjoy, just showing up and getting a good workout/practice in. There is something to be said about randomness. We have all had that anxiety anticipating HEAVY day and the feeling of dread. Randomness takes that away unless you want it.

No one wants week 6 of heavy day of the Wolf or Week 6 or 12 of Kettlebell Muscle.

Pick what interests you and complete it.
 
Last edited:
I've found this subject interesting too....it seems (from reading a lot of posts on here) that not too many strongfirst trainee's go on and attempt sinister. Lots and lots try and find something new after timeless simple or even timed simple! I wonder why this is? From the minute I picked s&s up I have only had sinister in mind.
 
Frank Matthews said:
I've found this subject interesting too....it seems (from reading a lot of posts on here) that not too many strongfirst trainee's go on and attempt sinister. Lots and lots try and find something new after timeless simple or even timed simple! I wonder why this is? From the minute I picked s&s up I have only had sinister in mind.
Click to expand...
1. Temptations! There are so many goodies in the candy shop.
2. S&S encourages branching out after Simple to other strength programs before pursuing Sinister.
3. Certain physical super-challenges; Conditioning a 6" wrist for a 48K getup is a totally different ballgame compared to an 8" wrist. So is swinging a 48K by a 140 lb gent compared to a 200 pounder.
3. Certain goals are better achieved by other programs, once Simple's base strength is reached.
4. Boredom! Some of us started from a large strength deficit and took us nearly a year to get to Simple.
 
Frank Matthews said:
I've found this subject interesting too....it seems (from reading a lot of posts on here) that not too many strongfirst trainee's go on and attempt sinister. Lots and lots try and find something new after timeless simple or even timed simple! I wonder why this is? From the minute I picked s&s up I have only had sinister in mind.
Click to expand...
Some folks for whatever reason are just not going to be capable of reaching sinister. Their size, age and/or genetic potential will not allow it. I would be in this group. (There are of course going to be exceptions)

Some folks don’t ‘need’ sinister. It doesn’t fit in their overall training plan. I fit in this group as well.
Related to that... for some, S&S is an end in itself, for others it’s a means to an end...
 
I think it boils down to hardstyle laziness for me...I can't be bothered changing too many facets of my programming and as long as I make progress I'm happy. Though I have stalled since moving to a 40 kg bell with an elbow tendon problem. I didn't have s and s 2 and was trying to swing etc every day. Too much too soon I guess. I am resetting as we speak and slowly moving forward. Each to their own of course, any programming from this universe is probably going to work well!!
 
I didn’t find I could do S&S for long before I got bored. I moved to ROP and the variation through changing the rep scheme progressively is a good thing for me. I do think hitting Simple is a reasonable “start point” perhaps. But it doesn’t have to be.
I intend to play between ROP, S&T and body weight work. But il probably reincorporate barbells when gyms open in a 5x5 scheme. I am a little vain like that. I’m not really drawn by double bells or any of the other programs - but then ROP is working for Hypertrophy and conditioning, and S&T suits my strength goals. Maybe if I wanted something else or had different factors, Id try something else like q&d or FPP.
 
Frank Matthews said:
I've found this subject interesting too....it seems (from reading a lot of posts on here) that not too many strongfirst trainee's go on and attempt sinister. Lots and lots try and find something new after timeless simple or even timed simple! I wonder why this is? From the minute I picked s&s up I have only had sinister in mind.
Click to expand...
Exercise, training, physical activity, etc. should be enjoyable. Enjoying the process of attacking a goal is huge if you want to "make it." Sometimes folks change "early" because they no longer enjoy the process, but still want an enjoyable way to stay active. Individual or client adherence is a major factor in programming, and changing training may increase adherence while still being enjoyable and propelling the individual towards their goals.

A whole other aspect is whether this training is the end itself (e.g. Sinister is the goal) or a support to what you enjoy (e.g. rock climbing, BJJ, pick up basketball, playing with kids, backpacking, etc.).
 
I’m not saying that I’m not impatient or add but I do think that you can learn and progress faster when you expose yourself to other programs. I mastered sns with the 24 and didn’t have a 32 so i went on to rop. Rop refined my clean and snatches and even led to a deeper and more powerful hinge overall. An injury led me to double work focusing on squats now drilling double work on off days from q&d (been running it since injury recovery). Q&d really opens your eyes to programming concepts and how much you can get done so quickly. Perfect for a young father of 3 like myself.

Yesterday i had an odd day between training and an off day and went for a timeless simple since i now have a 32k. I haven’t been training the 10x10 at all, all random dice rolls from q&d and I rarely do any tgu outside of a want to from time to time. So yesterday i did timeless simple in about 20 minutes.

I just think that you can read your own body and make the programs work for you instead of working for the program. I’ve been listening to Mike and Chris’ podcast as well and it’s pretty crazy how much one of them regrets dedicating so much time to sinister and wonders how much more progress they could have made from snatching, pressing, long cycle etc. I love s&s and felt strong af making that 32 float yesterday but i think you can experience a wthe in s&s by running other programs. Maybe even some block programming to shock the system like in rotk.
 
I stopped pursuing Simple right after I "owned" the 24 because TGUs were causing me hip pain (for lack of mobility and some muscle imbalance). It took a few months for it to clear up, but by that point, I just wanted to move on, as I had been pursuing Simple for eight months already. It took me so long to get there because I had almost no strength background when I started.

I can certainly see the benefit of pursuing Simple before other goals - I experienced a lot of the GPP, improved mobility, and core / shoulder strength, from it myself before even getting to the 32. But I also can't help but think how much stronger I would be in my upper body if I had spent those 8 months on RoP. I guess it really just depends on one's goals and what one enjoys, while keeping in mind the "one hinging movement, one upper pushing movement" in mind for overall development. I don't enjoy strict pressing at all, for example, but love push presses and jerks. I started kettlebelling because I found it enjoyable, but without any real goals other than the ones set before me, so goals other than generic GPP are tough for me.

If someone were starting from no athletic/strength training base and had the patience (maybe 2+ years? would depend on the individual) to get to Simple and the RoP goals of pressing the 32 and the 10-min snatch test with a 24, I commend them and their persistence, because it is a solid path to follow.

Bauer said:
Clean and Jerk to 40% of bodyweight with a single bell (BJJ Fanatics Plan A and B)
Click to expand...
Also, I am wondering what this goal is, since based on this small snippet I have just met this goal, but I don't know to what volume/time, I don't have the BJJ Fanatics course. I'm curious.
 
ntapsak said:
Also, I am wondering what this goal is, since based on this small snippet I have just met this goal, but I don't know to what volume/time, I don't have the BJJ Fanatics course. I'm curious.
Click to expand...
Number of reps from rotk with doubles was your bodyweight moving one decimal place back. So if your 185 you’d have 18.5 or 19 total reps, i think rotk called for bells equating your bodyweight though. Not sure about bjj.
 
LarryB said:
Number of reps from rotk with doubles was your bodyweight moving one decimal place back. So if your 185 you’d have 18.5 or 19 total reps, i think rotk called for bells equating your bodyweight though. Not sure about bjj.
Click to expand...
The OP put the BJJ C&J plan in the Beginner-Intermediate section, so I think the intention is it's a good goal for general development for a beginner.

And wow, that's a hefty goal. I recall the pressing goal of RotK being your bodyweight and the C&J being with double 32s, but I'm not sure about volume.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom