Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
Good call. Pavel puts it in the intermediate section, preparing you for double bell work.
Kettlebell Navigating through the StrongFirst KB universe
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Taylor Rimmer
Level 4 Valued Member
I think it’s worth mentioning that at some point you should take PlanStrong & Strong Endurance so you can go full custom mad scientist. I took both of those online last year and in both cases it was some of the best money I’ve ever spent.
BrianCF
Level 7 Valued Member
This is the problem with both Sinister and the ROP. The "KEEP GOING" mentality. You injured yourself. Is it your fault as stated in Enter the Kettlebell? Perhaps, but it may be that this is where you reach your limit strength wise.
It's the same problem with ROP, which I've done and ran 3 months at 32 kg. This is the level that I would get nicked up. It happens to a lot of people. Yes there are mutants out there who will achieve Sinister and the ROP goals. Just like guys who throw a baseball 95 mph. Everyone has a physical limit. You might have hit yours. For me, at a weight of 190 lbs, it was 36 kg, and 162 snatches with a 25kg bell. My snatch bell is now a 20 kg and I have ZERO regret about it. My press bell is a 25 or 28.
You can keep going and reset with a 24 or 32, but your laziness is holding you back from some great programs. The fun, for me of doing kettlebells are all the different exercises you can do as well as without putting the bell down.
LarryB
Level 7 Valued Member
The OP put the BJJ C&J plan in the Beginner-Intermediate section, so I think the intention is it's a good goal for general development for a beginner.
I think you’re right actually. I just finished the book for the first time and haven’t actually run it yet.
North
Level 6 Valued Member
I think once you’ve achieved timeless simple the world is your oyster. Recognizing you will need to learn new skills (clean, press, snatch, jerk, etc). Your strength, conditioning, and mobility foundation should be good enough to tackle these exercises and practicing new skills keeps it interesting and fills in gaps in such a minimalist program as S&S.
Stefan Olsson
Level 4 Valued Member
In this classic article, Dan John proposes a certain path through the StrongFirst KB universe
Things Are Going So Well, Help Me Screw It Up, Part II | StrongFirst
We should use performance standards to dictate when new skills are introduced. Follow the path laid out by Pavel. Let’s take a look at how this works.www.strongfirst.comI think this makes a lot of sense. Some might argue that double bells could be introduced earlier. However, with some new programs out there, there are even more options. In my mind, it lays out like this:
- Patterning of TGUs, Swings and Goblet Squats
- Simple & Sinister to Simple (maybe Timeless Simple only)
- ROP to 1/2 BW press and Snatch Test
- Attacking Solid/Sinister
- Double Bells: e.g., Total Tension Complex
Phase 1: Building a base (and a basic house on top of it)
Beginner to intermediate
With a single set of 16, 24, and 32 kg a gentleman could go this route:
I guess for ladies the same could apply, probably with bells from 8 to 24 kg in 4 kg jumps.
- Swings and Getups to at least 40% of Bodyweight (or Simple goals)
- Timeless Simple OR
- BJJ Fanatics Plan (Strong Endurance)
- Clean and Jerk to 40% of bodyweight with a single bell (BJJ Fanatics Plan A and B)
- ROP, at least to a 32 kg press and 24 kg snatch test for males
- Specializing a little in the C&P or the Snatch
- The Giant, working up to doing it with a single 32 kg
- Q&D 044 or A+A Snatches
Obviously, you would need to learn the following moves before embarking on any of the plans:
--
- Swings, Get-ups, Goblet Squats
- Clean and Jerk (with Push Press and Long Push Press in the progression)
- Clean and Press, Snatch
Phase 2: Specialization: Strength and/or StrongEndurance
Intermediate to advanced
After phase 1 (which could last years) one would need some heavier bells, double bells - or a barbell.
The options are manifold: You could introduce doubles with one of the following plans:
Or you could spezialize in StrongEndurance plans like
- ROTK
- ETK+ (from Milo Magazine)
- Total Tension Complex
- The Grad Workout by Dan John
- KB STRONG! by Geoff Neupert
- The Giant by Geoff Neupert
Somewhere along the way could probably also introduce Strength Aerobics for a while (standalone) or as an add-on to Simple and Sinister. Same with Naked Warrior. And of course you could start a Barbell Journey, probably starting with PTTP, Vodka & Pickles or Daily Dose Deadlift.
- Q&D with either Swings + Pushups (or Viking Push Press), or Snatches
- C&J as doubles or singles according to the BJJ Fanatics plan
- Simple and Sinister to Timed Simple - and/or to Solid or Sinister
- BJJ Fanatics Swings & Getups plan (A+A style)
Somewhere along the road one could settle for 2-3 plans to rotate, like A+A, S&S, Q&D, PTTP
Occasionally one could go for variety, for example with ETK+ or Total Package Template. Or one could try a peaking plan, for example for the TSC or for hypertrophy. Of course there are a lot of other plans for the decades ahead by Geoff Neupert, Fabio Zonin, and others. I am actually looking forward to more options coming out in the future (Strength Aerobics by @Brett Jones for example, or ROP 2.0).
--
Just wanted ot put it out there. If you have any suggestions or see it differently, I am happy to hear your thoughts. Personally I am still at Phase 1/Point 1 and will probably switch to the BJJ Fanatics plans over the course of the year.
FWIW, Dan John has explicitly said he regretts writing/puttning his name on that article.
At a certain level, hitting the timed standard for a given weight requires a level of specialization for some individuals.. same as to be able to press a certain weight.
A wise idea would be to backoff, build a wider strength base then revisit that goal.
Felixc
Level 7 Valued Member
Has he said what has changed in his thinking? Or is there a reference? I'm curious to hear what he said as he is pretty thoughtful.
Stefan Olsson
Level 4 Valued Member
As I wrote the post I was trying to remember where I heard/saw it. Im pretty confident it was on his forum over at danjohnuniversity.
ClaudeR
Level 6 Valued Member
From what I gather it was a lot more about politics and money than content
Stefan Olsson
Level 4 Valued Member
Cant remember the details, you could be right. I guess Dan is fine with most of Pavels work aside from heavy get-ups.
Back to topic.
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Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Give it a go! It's basically three programmes in one with volume varying based on multiple criteria including load and density. There's scope for so much cycling between component parts as well as progression on to double KBs. I'd really recommend it. I've learnt so much about programming from buying it.
Still love S&S of course...
Adam R Mundorf
Level 7 Valued Member
Where would iron cardio fit into this mix?
Adam R Mundorf
Level 7 Valued Member
Where's Kettlebell Axe fit into the StrongFirst Universe?
Bauer
Level 8 Valued Member
Anders
Level 6 Valued Member
People should stick with a program for a long time. Minimum 3 months. But preferably six months. They should get a solid taste of boredom. When the going gets tough the tough keeps going with the same training program.
I think people are way to creative and are too much seeking originality, entertainment and theory. Ross Ennamit once said wrote that Originality is overrated. That is so true.
This of course also applies to me. I would probably have been superstrong had I just stuck with one training program for a very long time.
So the right question is: When should you change your program ? The answer would be: Later. After you have achieved your goal. What about your feelings ? Write about it in your diary. Talk to a friend about it. But stick to the same program, and don't change your training program in order to feel a short kick of happiness.
I think people are way to creative and are too much seeking originality, entertainment and theory. Ross Ennamit once said wrote that Originality is overrated. That is so true.
This of course also applies to me. I would probably have been superstrong had I just stuck with one training program for a very long time.
So the right question is: When should you change your program ? The answer would be: Later. After you have achieved your goal. What about your feelings ? Write about it in your diary. Talk to a friend about it. But stick to the same program, and don't change your training program in order to feel a short kick of happiness.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
As a musician, I will say this is terribly true in so many dimensions.
I believe that suffering boredom for longer periods of time is a metric of a self control.
I have seen body builders remark about how horrible it is to eat they way they must for training. Chicken and rice every day, or some other monotonous steady diet of the same meals that work.
It is the mark of success to do what it takes to get results; in spite of one's own opinions feelings preferences etc.
I am far from an experienced coach. And I have myself largely as my own coach to one extent or another.
This comes with some major pitfalls.
I have found that changing things around makes it difficult for me to parse my own logged information. Following through on more rigid (dare I say minimalist) programs has made it much easier to learn from my more structured experiences. Often it helps me confirm information from other sources, about what does or (sometimes) doesn't work for me. Usually it's not about the source information being right or wrong for all cases, just about whether it's a good fit for me at the time.
I have been noticing that some time spent in the underload phase has other collateral benefits than keeping my foot on the gas, for example.
I have found that the highest correlation I can find with increased capacity and ability is with tonnage per calendar month.
I've learned that the money range reps for fast lifts for me is as low as 50-100 reps per session. And for slow lifts is as low as 10-25 reps per session. Adjusting the weight within that rep range is plenty to work with for progression.
I have found that all of this is much easier to see when I have stuck to a boring program. The boringer it is, the easier it is to learn from. While more complexity is useful and effective for other reasons, retrospectively, simple is much better for me to look back on and learn from.
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