OHP Specialization.

[Starlord]

So I have decided to start the year with OHP specialization.

Why?

Because the gym equipment I have access to will only allow 200kg of bumpers to be loaded up, so squats and deadlift specialization is not an option. Even with variations like the Bugenhagen deadlift.

I have recently stalled on the bench and the CGBP before that. My pecs are close to their previous size and strength levels. However I am lacking upper pec and delt separation.

So I am going to be prioritising the OHP to acheive this aesthetic and the best way to acheive sick aesthetics is to increase performance in a logical way to acheive said aesthetics.

So I will be performing OHP variations everyday for the next 6-8 weeks and then reviewing my progress. There will also be some upper back and rotator cuff work to prevent injury.

Question, how will you maintain your legs during this time? One of my variations of choice will be the barbell press cleaned from the floor. I will also be doing sand bag clean and presses too. In addition I will be maintaining my A+A KB Snatch sessions 4 times a week. I may lose a bit specific strength but that will come back quickly.

What am I expecting? First and foremost is my Press to increase. The strict press will be the primary metric for strength but all 4 variations will increase in weight used. Achieving the aforementioned aesthetical qualities. Greater abdominal development as ALL variations will be done standing (or maybe seated like Z press variations).

What are your thoughts?

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

You should still squat. 200 kgs not enough for squatting? I should be asking you for advice...

Call me crazy but I feel squatting is an essential quality, especially as it pertains to pressing. Sure you need strong shoulders, but the legs, glutes and core, upper back, everything from your toes to fingertips will be called upon. I tend to feel in the press, your pressing strength will only grow to the degree the supporting muscles underneath provide a base, which is the legs.

Front squats have great transfer. They place a heavier weight in a similar rack position to the press, force an upright posture (similar to the press) thus working the upper back and midsection harder all of which transfer over to the press. Now maybe you’re a monster lifter, I dunno but I recall seeing Pyrros Dimas front squatting 200 kgs for a top double at lightning speed then calling it a day and unless you’re putting him to shame, I’d think 200 kgs would be an adequate limit for front squats.

As for deadlifts..snatch grip deadlifts off a platform with 200 kgs? Pretty impressive...haven’t seen it happen much.

I’m confused a bit by your goal. Is it to improve your physique and muscular development of the delt/pec t or achieve a higher press? While they somewhat carryover, I feel picking one over the other would help achieve one goal better than two goals not as focused. Of course, with a variety of supplementary lifts I.e high inclines and what nots, they should help but if you’re pressing everyday, how much bodybuilding type work will this allow. I’m sure it can be done, but at an expense. If volume drives muscle growth, it also drains recovery for pressing sessions. Doing a little everyday may work, if done in a style of Christian Thibaedeau’s workout style like his “Best Strength Program for Natural lifters” or like the Soviet System when the press was trained as an Olympic lift.

 

[Hardartery]

Working the press is a probably a good plan. I doubt that it will do anything at all for your "Upper pec", but it won't hurt either. I think that you are confusing/conflating aesthetics with performance though. You don't really get stronger by getting bigger. You may get bigger while getting stronger. That said, I don't see an issue.

 

[watchnerd]

One of my variations of choice will be the barbell press cleaned from the floor.

I've done this.

It scales pretty well, as I've yet to meet anyone who can't clean far more than they can strict OHP.

(unless they're just awful at cleans)

 

[watchnerd]

best way to acheive sick aesthetics is to increase performance in a logical way to acheive said aesthetics.

Ehhh?

I don't know about that.

During my de-load weeks every 5-6 weeks, I take a week off training for power or strength and switch to "beach work".

Body building / aesthetic modalities aren't very performance focused.

In fact, "pump work" is often the opposite of performance oriented, although I have found it to help work capacity.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

@watchnerd ‘s comments got me thinking a lot about the divorce of muscle building and the strength sports of modern times. Back in the former half of the 21st century, there was far less disparity between a lifter and a bodybuilder. Bodybuilding contests often held “strength competitions” until the Weider intervention and top lifters such as Grimek and Kono usually competed in bodybuilding. Christian Thibeaudea wrote a great article on why modern Olympic lifters are far less muscular than their predecessors, to bluntly state here, was because of the dismissal of the press, more eccentric loading, higher reps, less technique develop and iron plate usage which required old timers to lower the weights controlled.

These days you can find monster lifters who look the least bit impressive yet squat and pull a ton. Reasons for this are for the opposite reasons above. Lifters don’t pull their cleans or snatches as high as old timers and much better technique, equipment (bumper plates, rotating bars) and training understanding. The elimination of the press was the icing on the cake that cut all bodybuilding ties with oly lifting.

Before the press completely dissolved as the upper body measure of strength, the new lift that would reign to rule upper body strength was quickly emerging. As the bench press stole the throne and powerlifting emerged, strength and muscle building were again united. Powerlifters of early, Doug Young, Larry Pacifico, John Kuc, Vince Annello etc all had one thing in common along with their strength...exceptional muscular development. This is a trend that has continued although today’s top powerlifters don’t put Mr. Olympia to shame, they usually are pretty beefy. One thing is certain, top tier powerlifters, at least in the Western Hemisphere, never neglected to add muscle to increase performance.

There are several interesting points regarding this. Firstly, Olympic lifters have squats and pulls that rival those of top powerlifters, yet display less muscle mass of their counterparts. What gives? Firstly, Olympic lifters usually have pretty jacked legs but the lifts that benefit the most are not the squat and deadlift, but the bench press. To reference Thibs again, he noted a study that suggested with a loss of bodyweight, any lifts that utilized the shoulder joints as prime movers were the first to be affected adversely. This would be the press and bench press. With the press no longer an issue and oly lifters having more concern with shoulder mobility and overhead stability, we can see why this discrepancy exists.

So, in summation. Bodybuilding training is useful for a strength athlete specifically relating to upper body strength. All things being equal, the bigger a lifters muscles, the more he/she will lift. muscle mass increases leverage, it increases stability and even artificially. Listen-if you’re resting the bar on a well developed set of pecs as opposed to a clavicle bone and your lats and triceps are squished together while your bicep and forearms are French kissing, you’re gonna have a helluvan easier time moving the weight then a fella hanging out on a limb. Not to mention a bigger muscle has the capacity to produce more force but that capacity must be trained. Pump alone won’t do it. That being said, there’s a reason there are weight classes in strength sports...

This is why old school and modern powerlifters would hit their bench early then pump it up afterwards. Oly lifters in China do similar things, hitting the oly lifts and variations then doing dips, chins, back extensions etc and they have the physiques to show for it. Bottom line, building mass will help your pressing strength but pressing must still be practiced heavy.

Now, I’m in no way inferring you can’t develop pressing strength without putting on mass but that’s a story for another time.

 

[LukeV]

@watchnerd ‘s comments got me thinking a lot about the divorce of muscle building and the strength sports of modern times. Back in the former half of the 21st century, there was far less disparity between a lifter and a bodybuilder. Bodybuilding contests often held “strength competitions” until the Weider intervention and top lifters such as Grimek and Kono usually competed in bodybuilding. Christian Thibeaudea wrote a great article on why modern Olympic lifters are far less muscular than their predecessors, to bluntly state here, was because of the dismissal of the press, more eccentric loading, higher reps, less technique develop and iron plate usage which required old timers to lower the weights controlled.

These days you can find monster lifters who look the least bit impressive yet squat and pull a ton. Reasons for this are for the opposite reasons above. Lifters don’t pull their cleans or snatches as high as old timers and much better technique, equipment (bumper plates, rotating bars) and training understanding. The elimination of the press was the icing on the cake that cut all bodybuilding ties with oly lifting.

Before the press completely dissolved as the upper body measure of strength, the new lift that would reign to rule upper body strength was quickly emerging. As the bench press stole the throne and powerlifting emerged, strength and muscle building were again united. Powerlifters of early, Doug Young, Larry Pacifico, John Kuc, Vince Annello etc all had one thing in common along with their strength...exceptional muscular development. This is a trend that has continued although today’s top powerlifters don’t put Mr. Olympia to shame, they usually are pretty beefy. One thing is certain, top tier powerlifters, at least in the Western Hemisphere, never neglected to add muscle to increase performance.

There are several interesting points regarding this. Firstly, Olympic lifters have squats and pulls that rival those of top powerlifters, yet display less muscle mass of their counterparts. What gives? Firstly, Olympic lifters usually have pretty jacked legs but the lifts that benefit the most are not the squat and deadlift, but the bench press. To reference Thibs again, he noted a study that suggested with a loss of bodyweight, any lifts that utilized the shoulder joints as prime movers were the first to be affected adversely. This would be the press and bench press. With the press no longer an issue and oly lifters having more concern with shoulder mobility and overhead stability, we can see why this discrepancy exists.

So, in summation. Bodybuilding training is useful for a strength athlete specifically relating to upper body strength. All things being equal, the bigger a lifters muscles, the more he/she will lift. muscle mass increases leverage, it increases stability and even artificially. Listen-if you’re resting the bar on a well developed set of pecs as opposed to a clavicle bone and your lats and triceps are squished together while your bicep and forearms are French kissing, you’re gonna have a helluvan easier time moving the weight then a fella hanging out on a limb. Not to mention a bigger muscle has the capacity to produce more force but that capacity must be trained. Pump alone won’t do it. That being said, there’s a reason there are weight classes in strength sports...

This is why old school and modern powerlifters would hit their bench early then pump it up afterwards. Oly lifters in China do similar things, hitting the oly lifts and variations then doing dips, chins, back extensions etc and they have the physiques to show for it. Bottom line, building mass will help your pressing strength but pressing must still be practiced heavy.

Now, I’m in no way inferring you can’t develop pressing strength without putting on mass but that’s a story for another time.

Very interesting observations. I really enjoyed this contribution. Thanks

 

[bluejeff]

This thread got me thinking.

Bodybuilding training is useful for a strength athlete specifically relating to upper body strength. All things being equal, the bigger a lifters muscles, the more he/she will lift. muscle mass increases leverage, it increases stability and even artificially.

I can't speak for barbells but I can speak for calisthenics. High level calisthenics athletes (those who can perfom straddle planch, full planche, planche pushups, 90 degree pushups) pretty much ALL have very defined anterior delts. While this is an example of form arising out of function, it demonstrates something interesting.

I don't know if there's a real term for it, but I think about it as "local" hypertrophy. Calisthenics athletes need hypertrophy in specific places. Not general hypertrophy and weight gain, or big legs, but big shoulders, since their moves are all about the shoulder girdle. Thus, larger muscles in that area benefit their activity. This is probably why the bread and butter of many calisthenics routines involve 3-5 sets of 8-12reps. Similarly, as @Philippe Geoffrion pointed out, I would be willing to bet that a focus on the overhead press in barbell lifting will build a similar aesthetic. Local hypertrpohy would probably benefit the lift, and likely arise out of doing it so often.

 

[Hung]

comments got me thinking a lot about the divorce of muscle building and the strength sports of modern times. Back in the former half of the 21st century, there was far less disparity between a lifter and a bodybuilder.

I used to think the same. But after talking with some bodybuilders in my country this idea change. Many of them are strong with squat, dead, bench, pull.
I believe if you want to be a great bodybuilder, you need to lift heavy at some point in your journey. The only exception I could think of is Ronnie Coleman - who lifts "light weight", "like a peanut" weight and is still huge.

 

[watchnerd]

@watchnerd ‘Western Hemisphere, never neglected to add muscle to increase performance.

There are several interesting points regarding this. Firstly, Olympic lifters have squats and pulls that rival those of top powerlifters, yet display less muscle mass of their counterparts. What gives? Firstly, Olympic lifters usually have pretty jacked legs but the lifts that benefit the most are not the squat and deadlift, but the bench press. To reference Thibs again, he noted a study that suggested with a loss of bodyweight, any lifts that utilized the shoulder joints as prime movers were the first to be affected adversely. This would be the press and bench press. With the press no longer an issue and oly lifters having more concern with shoulder mobility and overhead stability, we can see why this discrepancy exists.

So, in summation. Bodybuilding training is useful for a strength athlete specifically relating to upper body strength. All things being equal, the bigger a lifters muscles, the more he/she will lift. muscle mass increases leverage, it increases stability and even artificially. Listen-if you’re resting the bar on a well developed set of pecs as opposed to a clavicle bone and your lats and triceps are squished together while your bicep and forearms are French kissing, you’re gonna have a helluvan easier time moving the weight then a fella hanging out on a limb. Not to mention a bigger muscle has the capacity to produce more force but that capacity must be trained. Pump alone won’t do it. That being said, there’s a reason there are weight classes in strength sports...

This is why old school and modern powerlifters would hit their bench early then pump it up afterwards. Oly lifters in China do similar things, hitting the oly lifts and variations then doing dips, chins, back extensions etc and they have the physiques to show for it. Bottom line, building mass will help your pressing strength but pressing must still be practiced heavy.

Now, I’m in no way inferring you can’t develop pressing strength without putting on mass but that’s a story for another time.

As an Olympic lifter, this is pretty much what -- use bodybuilding lifts for the upper body, where it even seems to help a wee bit (if only psychologically) when trying to stabilize overhead.

Obviously, my legs, butt, and back do just fine with the competition quick lifts, their accessories, and squatting.

That being said, I'm not remotely close to bodybuilder arms or chest. Aside from weight class issues, there's only so much training time and recovery debt per week.

 

[watchnerd]

I used to think the same. But after talking with some bodybuilders in my country this idea change. Many of them are strong with squat, dead, bench, pull.
I believe if you want to be a great bodybuilder, you need to lift heavy at some point in your journey. The only exception I could think of is Ronnie Coleman - who lifts "light weight", "like a peanut" weight and is still huge.

There is strong compared to normal people and strong compared to strength athletes.

I've never met a physique competitor who could out back squat a powerlifter or out front squat an Olympic lifter of the same bodyweight. There are numerous YouTube videos on similar themes, and some throw in Crossfitters or Strongmen, too.

Also, a wide variety of rep / weight ranges over the course of a lifting career provides the best long term strategy if mass is the goal.

 

[Decathlete]

@Starlord for legs, this could be an excellent time to work on your overhead squats as well. Since it seems like you're going for hypertrophy, the extra time under tension for your shoulders could be a benefit, as long as it doesn't take away from your other training with any extra recovery.

 

[Hung]

There is strong compared to normal people and strong compared to strength athletes.

In VPA the top 1 at 67 kg is 210-160-260.
I know a few bodybuilders at the last phase could squat 180 kg for 5 reps at the same bodyweight.
In the clip this guy squat 90 kg each side (I don't know the weight of the barbell) for 5 reps, using knee wrap, no shoes at 3 days before the competition.

 

[Antti]

Front squat and good morning once or twice a week to keep your squat and deadlift going. Or just maintain if you feel like it. I don't mean to be negative but I have a hard time believing 200kg will be too little for them and they will work.

 

[watchnerd]

Front squat and good morning once or twice a week to keep your squat and deadlift going. Or just maintain if you feel like it. I don't mean to be negative but I have a hard time believing 200kg will be too little for them and they will work.

200 kg is more than plenty if you starting doing German Volume Training for squats.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

This thread got me thinking.



I can't speak for barbells but I can speak for calisthenics. High level calisthenics athletes (those who can perfom straddle planch, full planche, planche pushups, 90 degree pushups) pretty much ALL have very defined anterior delts. While this is an example of form arising out of function, it demonstrates something interesting.

I don't know if there's a real term for it, but I think about it as "local" hypertrophy. Calisthenics athletes need hypertrophy in specific places. Not general hypertrophy and weight gain, or big legs, but big shoulders, since their moves are all about the shoulder girdle. Thus, larger muscles in that area benefit their activity. This is probably why the bread and butter of many calisthenics routines involve 3-5 sets of 8-12reps. Similarly, as @Philippe Geoffrion pointed out, I would be willing to bet that a focus on the overhead press in barbell lifting will build a similar aesthetic. Local hypertrpohy would probably benefit the lift, and likely arise out of doing it so often.

One advantage the gymnast has over the weightlifter is the vast array of movement patterns with extreme heavy loading. Thinking on a rings routine, the gymnast goes from Maltese to planches, handstands front and back levers. Hell, they’re basically doing straight arm flies with their bodyweight! These require huge strength demand from very poor leverage positions. Try to find a bodybuilder who can do a straight arm fly, pullovers, rear delt raise or lateral raise with dumbbells or a weight equal to their own bodyweight...you will not. Not to mention these lifts don’t isolate but integrate. Gymnasts are the cream of the crop when it comes to upper body development.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

I used to think the same. But after talking with some bodybuilders in my country this idea change. Many of them are strong with squat, dead, bench, pull.
I believe if you want to be a great bodybuilder, you need to lift heavy at some point in your journey. The only exception I could think of is Ronnie Coleman - who lifts "light weight", "like a peanut" weight and is still huge.

This is true yet when talking of strong, the strong bodybuilder is not as strong as his powerlifting counterpart. If he is, he’s probably in the wrong sport. Stan Efferdine was the World's strongest bodybuilder but didn’t not fair great in the sport. Bret Contreras has a great article on T-Nation about this.

10 Reasons Bodybuilders Are Bigger Than Powerlifters

They both lifts weights. They both train hard. They both use drugs at the pro levels. So why are bodybuilders more jacked than powerlifters? The Powerlifter Look We all know that there are some freaky-looking powerlifters. That said, generally, powerlifters aren’t as muscular as bodybuilders...

www.t-nation.com

 

[Starlord]

This is true yet when talking of strong, the strong bodybuilder is not as strong as his powerlifting counterpart. If he is, he’s probably in the wrong sport. Stan Efferdine was the World's strongest bodybuilder but didn’t not fair great in the sport. Bret Contreras has a great article on T-Nation about this.

10 Reasons Bodybuilders Are Bigger Than Powerlifters

They both lifts weights. They both train hard. They both use drugs at the pro levels. So why are bodybuilders more jacked than powerlifters? The Powerlifter Look We all know that there are some freaky-looking powerlifters. That said, generally, powerlifters aren’t as muscular as bodybuilders...

www.t-nation.com

Disagree with that. He broke the 275lb raw total. Squatting over 900lb.

I think there is a big thing a lot of your are missing (which may be purposefully avoided). Which is how modern bodybuilders create their PED protocols to actually make "pump training" more effectively.

Milos Sarcev was probably the biggest proponent of pump training and orientating drug protocols accordingly. Obviously not everyone follows this to the letter, bodybuilders are individuals and adjust their protocols accordingly.

Because of this the value of "pump training" IMO is incredibly low. I say that as someone on restorative too.

However if we go back to looking at the bodybuilders of previous eras. Their approach was to get as strong as they could, at reps of compound lifts. The best example of this is Dr Columbu. A fantastic boxer, powerlifter and later bodybuilder. Having muscularity that dwarfed that of Arnold's. It is unfortunate for him that he was such a short competitor as I I beleive that is why he lost his final pose down against Arnold.

So this leads me to ny belief that for those of us who are not running specific PED protocols, the best way for us to acheive our desired aesthetic results is to increase performance in a manner that is conducive to achieving the goal.

 

[Philippe Geoffrion]

Disagree with that. He broke the 275lb raw total. Squatting over 900lb.

I think there is a big thing a lot of your are missing (which may be purposefully avoided). Which is how modern bodybuilders create their PED protocols to actually make "pump training" more effectively.

Milos Sarcev was probably the biggest proponent of pump training and orientating drug protocols accordingly. Obviously not everyone follows this to the letter, bodybuilders are individuals and adjust their protocols accordingly.

Because of this the value of "pump training" IMO is incredibly low. I say that as someone on restorative too.

However if we go back to looking at the bodybuilders of previous eras. Their approach was to get as strong as they could, at reps of compound lifts. The best example of this is Dr Columbu. A fantastic boxer, powerlifter and later bodybuilder. Having muscularity that dwarfed that of Arnold's. It is unfortunate for him that he was such a short competitor as I I beleive that is why he lost his final pose down against Arnold.

So this leads me to ny belief that for those of us who are not running specific PED protocols, the best way for us to acheive our desired aesthetic results is to increase performance in a manner that is conducive to achieving the goal.

Indeed. Good point. I was referring more to his bodybuilding career which wasn’t all that poor but just not exceptional. I think Stan, who has an astonishingly freaky physique, fared better in powerlifting than bodybuilding.

Franco was exceptional. One might argue that his freakish strength was also amplified by the fact he was short, a similar phenomenon of Marvin Eder.

 

[Starlord]

Indeed. Good point. I was referring more to his bodybuilding career which wasn’t all that poor but just not exceptional. I think Stan, who has an astonishingly freaky physique, fared better in powerlifting than bodybuilding.

Franco was exceptional. One might argue that his freakish strength was also amplified by the fact he was short, a similar phenomenon of Marvin Eder.

Roger. I would agree with that. If Stan had committed to powerlifting sooner he would of had achieved even greater accolades (something I have such confidence in that I will pass it off as a fact).

Height definitely is a contributor in relative strength. I am 173cm and notice similar things regarding strength. Especially when you run specialization programs to peak strength in specific lifts. Strength potential is immense.