Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Have you started your press specialization training? I’d love to see your training. Hopefully this thread helped give some interesting ideas.
OHP Specialization.
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Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
I'm going to start with this quote, although my reply is really more general and directed at many who posted in this threas. This statement is not factually or demonstratably correct. Bigger does not mean stronger from a strictly hypertrophic standpoint. It just doesn't. There are scientific studies demonstrating hypertrophic growth of muscle tissue with no increase in strength of that same tissue.
While it is true that gaining weight results in a direct strength gain, it doesn't really matter where the weight comes from. Gaining 5lbs of fat will give you an immediate boost pretty much the same as 5lbs of anything else. There's a reason WSM competitors are usually NOT lean. The fat actually helps, and so does the water weight.
The loss of overlap between disciplines evaporated over time as a natural consequence of several factors - the main one being that as more people got interested the competition got tougher and that meant more specialization to succeed. Another giant reason is the drugs. I am by no means saying that there are less drugs being used today, because I don't belive that to be true at all. The drugs being used - however - have changed considerably over the years, and this is in large part due to testing and it's evolution. Taking Deca is great way to fail a drug test, so they don't do that anymore. They can use Anavar and get off of it pretty quickly and not take that risk - and not put on the mass. Just an example, I don't know first-hand if that is the current drug of choice amongst tested athletes.
I'm going to repeat myself again here. A bigger muscle is not necessarily a stronger muscle. That is a myth. Lifting heavy tends to have some hypertrophic carryover, to an extent. Lifting for hypertrophy has some carryover to strength. They are not totally exclusive, but they are definitely different from each other and do not operate hand-in-hand. And the notion that the elimination of the press is the reason for the physique changes is stupid. There's no nice way to put it. It's a stupid premise. So is the idea that it comes from the advent of bumpers. They dropped the weights before bumpers too, that's why the old plates had the wide flanges and took up so much space on the bar - to spread the load for impact. It's simply not realistic to pursue multiple sports in the field at a high level anymore, the training requirement for achieving a high level are too different.
Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
Ronnie never lifted light weight. He was famous for lifting heavy weight, and came from a Powerlifting background. He was the ONLY Bber in his time that got any respect from strength athletes - because he used heavy weight. BBers do not as a general rule go heavy. Heavy compared to the average gym rat maybe, but not compared to strength athletes. I was around an NPC guy when I was younger, he worked squats up to 405. He did a lot of reps, but he only went up to 405. That's a warm-up for a middle of the road Powerlifter or Strongman. I was using that for Pause Squats and I was no where near elite in terms of strength. People have a wrong idea of what is actually being used by guys training for strength, it's a lot more weight than you're thinking.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
I think you misunderstand me for stating that strictly building muscle mass via pump is enough to improve upper body strength. As I stated, the neural aspect of training must still be trained in order for any strength to be realized from an increase in mass. when I stated "all things being equal" is referring to an athlete who has a strength level and increases his muscle mass, his muscles have the potential to lift more weight. Of course, this can only be realized by strength training. Linear periodization has died out somewhat but I can still get on board with conjugate which is pretty much 80% bodybuilding to accompany the ax Effort and Dynamic Effort.
Elimination of the press a stupid reason for explaining the loss of muscle mass among weight lifters. Really? Why? If there's a reason I'd like to hear. It makes perfect sense to me. Paul Anderson, Doug Hepburn, Bill March, John Davis, Bill Starr all took of the variety of "assistance work" they used in the press, namely the bench and dips. In the Russian system, whose data evades me, the coach stated the press needed a variety of upper body work to nudge and a list of endless press combinations is then listed. I'd think this extra body work being dropped after not needing to advance the press any longer would be a reason we see less muscular upper bodies in Olympic lifting...seems pretty logical to me seeing as upper body strength is no longer an essential quality of a successful olympic lifter.
Once again, I never stated purely pump would build strength. Never. Also why I posted the Bret Contreras article and asked OP if he'd rather have aesthetic gain or strength gain, as there is overlap but they tend to conflict. I do agree with you that ANY weight gain will help lifts including fat. But I'd think (maybe I'm wrong?) that such a path wouldn't benefit lifters in lighter weight classes as much as super heavyweights.
Here is how they lowered weights during the 52 olympics.
1952 Olympic Weightlifting, 90 kg class. - Bing video
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
I 100% agree with you. The difference in physiques from before the press was dropped to after is dramatic.
Adding a lift that requires strength will require muscle.
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
I have. This is the first week. I've got some before pictures but the phone on my camera isn't great. So I'm going to try a different camera and if that isn't great then I'll post them anyway.
This week as been:
Monday - 85kg 5RM press
Tuesday - 40kg sandbag clean and press
Wednesday - 60kg 5×5 clean and press
Thursday - 30kg 1×10 Arnold press
Friday - 100kg 1RM press
Saturday - I'm thinking about some light Arnold press
Everything is done standing or seated without back support.
A few things to note. Technique. This will be where I gain the most strength. Making my technique more efficient. Definitely felt rusty and unnatural.
A lot of pull ups, rows and rotator cuff work is being done in conjunction to this. My left shoulder was feeling beat up from a lot of benching and articulating the shoulder through a fuller range of motion is making it feel much better.
You forget the different types of core stressed caused by over head work. For example the Arnold presses left me feeling it in more core more than anywhere else.
Visible changes? Only in my abs. It's looking a little sharper, however I am putting this more so down to my mind playing tricks on me. Even with restorative such effects would not occur this quickly.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Awesome. You should start a log here
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
That is the intention of this thread. Although if it is inappropriately placed then please can the admin move the thread?
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
@Steve Freides might be able to transfer this into straining log?
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
LukeV
Level 7 Valued Member
If I take identical twins and train one for mass on 6+ reps and one for strength on 5- reps (with weights adjusted accordingly) then after, say, six months do a test of one rep max, I would expect the one lifting lower reps with heavier weight (ie strength trained) to excel. But if I asked them to test their strength for three sets of 10 with two minute rest intervals the outcome should be different. Bodybuilders don't in the main train for a maximal lift (in fact many never lift maximally at all because it's too draining when programming for multiple workouts weekly) but can be plenty strong if you want to test their strength in other ways, more applicable to their training. In my glory days as a bodybuilder (shortlived and uninspiring as they were) I went years without lifting above 80% RM. I didn't even know what my 1RM was.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
You should check out the squat contest between Hatfield and Platz. Makes this point emphatically.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Ha I just noticed this. ?
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
I agree with what you said. Probably you do not understand my joke (which is okay): Ronnie Coleman's famous lines are "light weight babeee" /"peanut weight"/"yeah buddy". He shouts that aloud before hitting really heavyweight.
Hung
Level 8 Valued Member
I disagree. Tomo Kono won both Olympic Lifting (which back then required the press) and bodybuilding contest. Amit Sapir is IFBB Pro, World Record Holder Powerlifter. Larry Wheels does both bodybuilding, powerlifting and strongman.
Why need to divide strength sport so much?
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
No one’s saying a bodybuilder isn’t strong or a powerlifter isn’t muscular. We’re just saying if you want to excel at one, you’re gonna succeed more at that discipline if you sacrifice a bit from the other. Jay Cutler is another bodybuilder who has lifted very heavy but said when he switched to lighter weights and focused on the pump, he saw better muscle building results.
And certainly powerlifting can develop a strength base to setup a successful bodybuilding career or vise versa, but the athlete would have to alter their training parameters. Bodybuilders before a competition in their preparation to look the best are usually in a very weak state while cutting, at least if they want to look shredded on stage which is kind of important in a competition.
Of course, there are Bo Jacksons in the world but they’re few and far between.
Hardartery
Level 5 Valued Member
I don't want anyone to think I was making a hit and run post, I just got really busy for a bit. I completely agree with you on certain points. The pump is smoke and mirrors and I don't understand why anyone pursues it outside of guys going on stage to pose. It just makes me move like an even older man. The notion that a larger muscle is a stronger muscle, or that it has greater strength potential, is a common statement and belief and I think it has no actual backing in evidence. I also think that it's not true. At all. The older I get, the more convinced I am that strength is neural conditioning and hypertrophy is a correlative side effect of little consequence. It really doesn't matter if you weigh more because of hypertrophy or because you got fatter or because you are retaining water, it is an equal effect.
Back to the discussion of O-lifters and aesthetics. They were not the same specialists back then that they are now. Anderson did exhibitions of old time strength feats, and trained for that stuff, so he could afford to eat and have a place to live. Most of them had to do similar things, or at least came from a background of another sport like American Football. As a result, they were going to have development that had zero to do with the needs of the O-lifts. Big biceps are actually a problem, they get in the way and interfere with things. And back to my other point, the steroids. If you take certain AAS, you will blow up. Period. They don't use those anymore in tested sports because they are impossible to mask effectively. I know people don't like to address that stuff, but drugs are a fact. They also do not do what most people, lifters included, think. They do not increase recovery, at least not how everybody says. Don't take my word for it, I competed clean. I reference the ElitFTS Tabletalk between Tate and Wendler. I think it's number 3. Dave states specifically that they DIAL BACK VOLUME when athletes turn up the dose. What are the steroids REALLY doing if they aren't improving recovery? A guy on a cycle puts on 30 pounds almost over night and looks huge. Then the cycle stops and he's the same size he was before, and his lifts drop right back down to where they were. Guys in weight classes other than the heaviest ones are lean to stay in the weight class, and for no other reason. They lift less, but adding body weight doesn't give them enough to still be competitive in the next class up. So what do you do? You do what you can to not have extra meat anywhere that can push you into the next class. If you are in the next class because you are sauced, and so is everyone else, you are getting the bang for the buck to justify the size.
Philippe Geoffrion
Level 7 Valued Member
Understandable and I appreciate your post and I must admit my knowledge on steroids, PEDS is nill, nada and zilch. And indeed, pump is really akin to cosmetic surgery.
Truly large biceps are an issue for oly lifters. I remember a story Bill Starr told about a bodybuilder who was struggling with a 185 lbs clean because his guns were too loaded.
If there’s one thing building muscle did for me in my early years of strength training, no doubt with wool covered eyes and the Muscle and Fitness magazines propaganda rife with “Build biceps like Ronnie” and similarly absurd histrionics, was I actually felt more confident under heavier weights. I was built like a starved giraffe in high school and the daunting act of just unracking a plate on the bench press made my bean pile body resemble a house on stilts in an earthquake. As I gained weight, this situation improved and perhaps for me subconsciously, a little more muscle mass makes me feel more stable under loads which my 6 ft 3 wingspan and Manute Bol femurs are forced to lift.
That being said, it wasn’t endless flies or concentration curls and push downs as infinium that brought me the greatest hypertrophy to strength benefits but the inclusion of a few similar accessories to the big lifts exercises like dumbbell benches or spilt squats or pushing the squat reps into the 20 rep ranges.
I’ve also had tremendous strength results just doing the big lifts with no accessory lifts for periods of time. Alas, I get bored easily, programs stop working and changes are welcomed at times and during these periods I think doing other lifts, changing training parameters or working on neglected skills come in handy and rejuvenate the desire to return to heavy iron. This is where “Bodybuilding training” falls for me, though it’s always secondary to strength training in the paradigm of my training life and it falls into the training style of doing dips, different presses, single leg work, oftentimes with higher reps. Anyways, I’ve hijacked @Starlord s straining log long enough with my life story.
Cheers
Starlord
Level 5 Valued Member
No need to apologise. Loving the engagement this has receive thus far.
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