Kettlebell Program Hopping

[John K]

I always talk about recovery. I think it's a clear term which helps people understand how things outside the gym influence their strength development. And in turn may make it more clear how it all also influences life in general.

But I'm talking about strength training.

Consider Andy, Tim, Diana and Becky talking about deadlifts. Becky wants to get a better deadlift and asks her friends how good their programs were. Andy says PTTP increased his deadlift from 315 to 405 in three months. Diana says Conjugate for beginners got hers from 225 to 275 in two months. Tim said that Starting Strength really taught him to go to bed in time, never later than 11 PM.

No argument here. What I am saying is if Becky wants to achieve the improvements of Andy or Diana (or Tim... he might've been successful too he just didn't answer the question!), she will need a process that supports the program. The performance improvement rests on the back of a successfully implemented process. This can be intuitive or explicit, but it still exists. Process goals make successful implementation explicit, which is helpful for folks who do not do this "naturally." This exists with strength training, or with diet, or with budgeting, or with any number of things.

Process goals specific to strength training could be hitting a number of sessions a week, or a month - or increasing consistency, or (back to the original diversion) completing a program. But yes, a lot of process goals around strength training facilitate the training to occur productively and consistently which is important to actually improving.

I think we're going in circles so perhaps I'm not communicating well, or perhaps there isn't an agreement to be had. I don't think we disagree on the fundamentals - that training should make you better at something and that is determined by a performance metric, and that there are things that are done outside of training that can set someone up for success.

 

[Antti]

No argument here. What I am saying is if Becky wants to achieve the improvements of Andy or Diana (or Tim... he might've been successful too he just didn't answer the question!), she will need a process that supports the program. The performance improvement rests on the back of a successfully implemented process. This can be intuitive or explicit, but it still exists. Process goals make successful implementation explicit, which is helpful for folks who do not do this "naturally." This exists with strength training, or with diet, or with budgeting, or with any number of things.

Process goals specific to strength training could be hitting a number of sessions a week, or a month - or increasing consistency, or (back to the original diversion) completing a program. But yes, a lot of process goals around strength training facilitate the training to occur productively and consistently which is important to actually improving.

I think we're going in circles so perhaps I'm not communicating well, or perhaps there isn't an agreement to be had. I don't think we disagree on the fundamentals - that training should make you better at something and that is determined by a performance metric, and that there are things that are done outside of training that can set someone up for success.

I'm not sure if there is an argument and what the disagreement or agreement would be.

Yes, strength training rests on being able to, well, strength train, and recover from it.

Sure, there are people who need to improve their habits to train better. I think for most starting training more seriously improves those habits, and makes them healthier. But I'm not sure if this aspect is something to consider comparing programs, how they develop these habits.

I do see that some programs demand more when it comes to training, recovery, time, equipment, etc.

My original point was that strength programs should make us quantifiably stronger.

Before that I said that people should give themselves more credit when picking and following programs, identify their goals and pick accordingly. Nothing wrong with just exercising, nothing that grand about forcing one to do something boring or uninteresting. Health/GPP goals are pretty simple.

 

[JamesPTA]

This thread has been great and informative.

I wouldn't say that I hop from program to the next. My issue that I have is that my wife and family keep gifting me another kettlebell for X-mas or my birthday. So they just keep getting heavier and heavier. Or my single bell turns into a pair. I choose a program or a set of programs based on my ability to lift the next size up (or the next pair up).

@Adam R Mundorf, I remember you posting a few years back of your collection of Rogue e-coated bells all the way up to the 48kg, I believe. I think it's easy for the mind to become muddied down with the plethora of program options along with the options in bells.

 

[watchnerd]

I think it's easy for the mind to become muddied down with the plethora of program options along with the options in bells.

I don't think the plethora of options with KBs is any worse than it is for dumbbells and barbells.

 

[JamesPTA]

I don't think the plethora of options with KBs is any worse than it is for dumbbells and barbells.

I couldn't agree more. I personally find it more beneficial to have different loads. I was merely making the point that the OP has too many option at his disposal. You and I are not the OP

 

[watchnerd]

Health/GPP goals are pretty simple.

Sadly, it seems to me that what once was just considered baseline health/GPP now qualifies as being "into fitness".

When outside using my manual push reel lawnmower or chopping wood, I'll get neighbors say things like "oh wow, that's so healthy."

Whereas it would have been considered completely mundane decades ago.

 

[Jeff Roark]

I would argue that just practicing TGUs and swings in order to achieve Timed Sinister is not the most effective way to achieve Timed Sinister.

If I had an average sized male as a client (I'm not a trainer, but I'll pretend) who could do Timeless Simple and told me they wanted to hit Timed Sinister, I would:

1. Reduce their TGU and swing practice to once or twice a week
2. Focus on strength and power training using tools other than KBs
3. Have them gain some mass via hypertrophy training (it's easier to lift big if you're bigger)

If I can get someone to a close grip 100 kg barbell floor press, 100 kg barbell lunge, 100 kg cleans, and a 100 kg push press, they've got a solid strength and power foundation to build on to practice Timed Sinister, and the incremental loading of the barbell is going to make the programming easier and the progression smoother.

Once they're strong and powerful enough, then you can 'competition prep' by increasing the TGU and swing frequency training and start working on time / conditioning.

Basically, pretty standard strength / power athlete methodology.

Completely agree.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Sadly, it seems to me that what once was just considered baseline health/GPP now qualifies as being "into fitness".

When outside using my manual push reel lawnmower or chopping wood, I'll get neighbors say things like "oh wow, that's so healthy."

Whereas it would have been considered completely mundane decades ago.

Decades ago most people worked hard enough at their jobs, supplemental fitness pursuit was called “recreation”.

Go back a little further and it becomes even more so. Orwell’s description of the average coal miner’s physique from “Road to Wigan Pier” is pretty illuminating.

 

[Pete L]

Sadly, it seems to me that what once was just considered baseline health/GPP now qualifies as being "into fitness".

When outside using my manual push reel lawnmower or chopping wood, I'll get neighbors say things like "oh wow, that's so healthy."

Whereas it would have been considered completely mundane decades ago.

I've always fancied a manual push lawn mower. Would you recommend it?
(My lawn is circa 60 SQM)

 

[watchnerd]

I've always fancied a manual push lawn mower. Would you recommend it?
(My lawn is circa 60 SQM)

For 60 square meters?

Definitely!

(Our property is 1 acre, about 1/4 of which has grass)

 

[North Coast Miller]

I've always fancied a manual push lawn mower. Would you recommend it?
(My lawn is circa 60 SQM)

I used to mow 1.5 acres with push mower. The downside to using them is they need to be sharp and the reel needs to be tuned to the bedknife, sometimes (often!) individually. Straight outta the box they are often pretty jacked up (Scott’s, Great States). I’d love to hear recommendations for ones that are better quality with an 18-20” cut.

The upside is they cut better the faster you go, actually faster than a gas mower most of the time.

 

[watchnerd]

I used to mow 1.5 acres with push mower. The downside to using them is they need to be sharp and the reel needs to be tuned to the bedknife, sometimes (often!) individually. Straight outta the box they are often pretty jacked up (Scott’s, Great States). I’d love to hear recommendations for ones that are better quality with an 18-20” cut.

The upside is they cut better the faster you go, actually faster than a gas mower most of the time.

I use a Fiskars.

18" cut.

Supposedly reel mowers are healthier for the grass, too.

 

[Ryan T]

Ah forums... where a post starts about program hopping and turns to mowing the grass. Priceless.

 

[offwidth]

To be honest, I am not a fan of SMART goals, mostly because of the T... Trying to get there at a specific time often gets people into trouble. Would Pavel Macek have achieved Timed Sinister faster by announcing a specific date? I doubt it. For the most part, he just focused on the process.

Trying to get there on time often leads people to ignore some signals like minor injuries, fatigue, etc. I have certainly been there.

The SMAR part can stay, fine by me

It depends upon the goal(s) in question. In many cases the ‘T’ is very important, not at all arbitrary, and often times built in. For example… if I’m training for a race or a climbing trip, then that date is going to be pretty much carved in stone. So you can bet your last dollar that all my process milestones are going to be time-bound. (One just needs to be smart about SMART…)

 

[Abishai]

Ah forums... where a post starts about program hopping and turns to mowing the grass. Priceless.

do you think Pavel would describe the forums as "trading old war stories?"

 

[Bauer]

It depends upon the goal(s) in question. In many cases the ‘T’ is very important, not at all arbitrary, and often times built in. For example… if I’m training for a race or a climbing trip, then that date is going to be pretty much carved in stone. So you can bet your last dollar that all my process milestones are going to be time-bound. (One just needs to be smart about SMART…)

That is a good point. Real deadlines work. I just find that made-up deadlines don't work at all and are usually disctracting from the process that will get you the result anyway.

A process leads to a specific outcome which hopefully correlates with a more general outcome.

For example: Practicing swings and TGUs leading to achieving Simple, being a good proxy for GPP (incl. quality of movement, strength, athelticism, mobility, stability, physical well-being).

I think the general discussions we are having in this thread are, among others:

• When people are asked "What is your goal?", what is the right kind of answer? On which part should a goal focus? On the process, on the specific outcome or the general outcome?
• When people do program hopping (thus disrupting a clear process), how can we ensure that they will still get desirable specific and general outcomes?
• And then we all share our favourite strategies. Some like SMART goals for the specific outcome, for example. Others like process goals (practicing PTTP or S&S 5x per week). Some just want some basic health and an enjoyable, repeatable routine.

As mentioned several times, it gets far more complicated when there are other specific, but only loosely correlated goals, like winning a basketball match.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I use a Fiskars.

18" cut.

Supposedly reel mowers are healthier for the grass, too.

Didn't think they made em that wide...

 

[TimothyGander]

100 kg barbell floor press

Why not bench press? Do you think it would be better for this application or it's just a way to avoid needing extra equipment?

 

[Chris Mills]

I used to mow 1.5 acres with push mower. The downside to using them is they need to be sharp and the reel needs to be tuned to the bedknife, sometimes (often!) individually. Straight outta the box they are often pretty jacked up (Scott’s, Great States). I’d love to hear recommendations for ones that are better quality with an 18-20” cut.

The upside is they cut better the faster you go, actually faster than a gas mower most of the time.

My Scotts 20 works great.

 

[offwidth]

I think the general discussions we are having in this thread are, among others:

• When people are asked "What is your goal?", what is the right kind of answer? On which part should a goal focus? On the process, on the specific outcome or the general outcome?
• When people do program hopping (thus disrupting a clear process), how can we ensure that they will still get desirable specific and general outcomes?
• And then we all share our favourite strategies. Some like SMART goals for the specific outcome, for example. Others like process goals (practicing PTTP or S&S 5x per week). Some just want some basic health and an enjoyable, repeatable routine.

Yes!
You have sort of zeroed in here on how I (sort of) approach things. Every so often I have some major event based activity that I focus my life around; typically the aforementioned race or big climb. I suppose ‘goal’ is as good a word as any to use.

But the rest of the time… if someone were to posit “What is your goal?”… I might answer that my goal is to engage in a process and lifestyle that gives me the ability to take on those goal based activities in short notice. I hesitate to use the term GPP because I think it’s more than that. (Maybe SGPP? )

And for the readers who have switched to discuss lawn mowing implements… all I can say is this: move to Arizona… lawns? We don‘t need no stinking lawns…