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Kettlebell Program Hopping

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Another point possibly worth adding to this very interesting thread -- Most people don't exercise at prescribed minimum amounts. And for those who do, possibly a majority of them don't follow a program. They have a routine. They just go to the gym or whatever their activity is and do it. Same thing session after session, only changing it up to small degrees, or from time to time....
Anna, is this like when we were regularly training together and I'd mostly snatch and clean & press 32kgs, farmer carry heavy weight, sometimes swing and hit some pullups? And then late fall of 2019 did a deadlift 5/3/1? I found that I'd kept the "carburetor gassed" and made excellent progress as a result.
 
Sometimes I trade off 'numeric' results for better GPP outcomes, improved day to day, or risk reward trade-offs.

Examples:

--After achieving Simple, I get everything I need out of TGUs at a lighter weight / better risk-reward trade-off

--My lifetime best PR on high bar back squat is 202 kg. But I get everything I need from squats at 150 kg and I pay far less tax.

--I can get my body fat down to 10%, but I get sick more often, my libido goes into the toilet, and its bad for my marriage

--I can focus on one training modality or program for more than 6 months, but whenever I do so my motivation drops off, the energy I put into sessions decline, and I get unhappy and burnt out

Agreed to all the above with added observation that as I’ve gotten older the gulf between gym strong and day to day wellbeing has never been wider.

My current run w/ iso has probably lasted so long because I feel like I’m not only still getting results but also continuing to learn about a method that is comparatively “new” to me.

Beyond that, and seems very cliche’, my 54yr old body has zero complaints with this approach.
 
What I find odd about today's current fitness environment is how often completing a program *is* the goal.

I guess I'm used to competing in sports, where the training is not the objective, it's just a tool to (hopefully) help you win.
Off topic, but there are Process Goals and Outcome Goals. Completing a program would be an example of a process goal, bagging a new PR would be an outcome goal. Generally, when people focus on Process Goals they have better outcomes than when they focus on Outcome Goals.

Process goals usually focus on building habits and consistency - the things you need to achieve your desired Outcome. By focusing on the building blocks rather than the completed picture, people get better results.
 
Off topic, but there are Process Goals and Outcome Goals. Completing a program would be an example of a process goal, bagging a new PR would be an outcome goal. Generally, when people focus on Process Goals they have better outcomes than when they focus on Outcome Goals.

Process goals usually focus on building habits and consistency - the things you need to achieve your desired Outcome. By focusing on the building blocks rather than the completed picture, people get better results.
This is a great point.
 
Off topic, but there are Process Goals and Outcome Goals. Completing a program would be an example of a process goal, bagging a new PR would be an outcome goal. Generally, when people focus on Process Goals they have better outcomes than when they focus on Outcome Goals.

Process goals usually focus on building habits and consistency - the things you need to achieve your desired Outcome. By focusing on the building blocks rather than the completed picture, people get better results.

That makes sense in a standardized long term program plan GPP -> SPP, macro cycles, meso cycles, micro cycles, etc with an outcome goal at the end.

In contrast to things that are popular on social media, such as...

50 burpees a day for 30 days

....where the goal isn't laying out some foundation for a next step.

It's just people trying to earn a 'merit badge' in burpees.
 
That makes sense in a standardized long term program plan GPP -> SPP, macro cycles, meso cycles, micro cycles, etc with an outcome goal at the end.

In contrast to things that are popular on social media, such as...

50 burpees a day for 30 days

....where the goal isn't laying out some foundation for a next step.

It's just people trying to earn a 'merit badge' in burpees.
Sure, process goals might be good but you still need to have good process goals.

On the positive side these type programs are attempting to build a habit of physical activity, and even if I think it could be done better for almost any goal it is awesome that folks are trying to build a habit of physical activity.
 
Anna, is this like when we were regularly training together and I'd mostly snatch and clean & press 32kgs, farmer carry heavy weight, sometimes swing and hit some pullups? And then late fall of 2019 did a deadlift 5/3/1? I found that I'd kept the "carburetor gassed" and made excellent progress as a result.

Someone with experience in running programs (such as yourself) can organically train with some sort of routine and make progress, or at least keep the "carburetor gassed." You know what is the right amount of stress/stimulation to provide an adaptation for improvement, or at least for maintenance. In some way, you're pushing for new capability, riding that wave forward.

Someone who doesn't understand the training process (such as a generic mindless regular exerciser) will tend to do the same routine thinking if it started off getting them results, it will continue to drive results. They don't understand why they plateau or even slide backwards, when they're still doing the same exercise session time after time.
 
50 burpees a day for 30 days
You jest.

On the flip side I did 9000 burpees this last January.

Pop culture would tell you that my conditioning would be through the roof. I'm sure there was some adaptation, but in reality I became really efficient with burpees and good at mentally chipping away at something big.

And yes, it's very stupid. Don't try it at home.
 
Off topic, but there are Process Goals and Outcome Goals. Completing a program would be an example of a process goal, bagging a new PR would be an outcome goal. Generally, when people focus on Process Goals they have better outcomes than when they focus on Outcome Goals.

Process goals usually focus on building habits and consistency - the things you need to achieve your desired Outcome. By focusing on the building blocks rather than the completed picture, people get better results.
Sure, process goals might be good but you still need to have good process goals.

On the positive side these type programs are attempting to build a habit of physical activity, and even if I think it could be done better for almost any goal it is awesome that folks are trying to build a habit of physical activity.

I think it's great that people develop habits that make them happier, healthier and more capable.

But I wouldn't really ever expect such from a comparison of strength training programs. Maybe I'm in a different crowd.

When it comes to strength training, I expect it to make the trainee stronger, as simple as it is. And the developed strength should be easily measured. After all, why not? Any kind of vague claims smell of quackery to me.
 
I think it's great that people develop habits that make them happier, healthier and more capable.

But I wouldn't really ever expect such from a comparison of strength training programs. Maybe I'm in a different crowd.

When it comes to strength training, I expect it to make the trainee stronger, as simple as it is. And the developed strength should be easily measured. After all, why not? Any kind of vague claims smell of quackery to me.
Perhaps it is similar to Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs, you require a foundation of Process Goal realisation to enable success with an Outcome Goal?
 

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Perhaps it is similar to Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs, you require a foundation of Process Goal realisation to enable success with an Outcome Goal?

Any connection between achieving Transcendence via strength training is beyond my pay grade.

But....going back to program hopping...

The repeated bout effect is real and well documented.

Repeated exposure to a given stressor (i.e. training a given lift, for example) has diminishing returns. Periodization attempts to mitigate this, but there are limits to this, as well.

Novel stimuli can thus be beneficial in driving new adaptations in the organism.

Novel stimuli will come at the cost of specialized adaptation, but if we're talking about GPP, you don't want to optimize for SPP, anyway.

So if 'wellness' is your objective, moderate program hopping (say every season) is probably healthy.
 
Someone who doesn't understand the training process (such as a generic mindless regular exerciser) will tend to do the same routine thinking if it started off getting them results, it will continue to drive results.

its-almost-time-to-repeat-new-years-resolution-meme.jpg
 
Perhaps it is similar to Maslov's Hierarchy of Needs, you require a foundation of Process Goal realisation to enable success with an Outcome Goal?

I don't know. How would you see that in real life practice?

I have people come to me asking for coaching to get stronger. They pay me. If they don't get stronger, they don't come back, and I can't blame them. I would treat any coach or program the same way myself. And the way I look at coaches and programs is simple, does it quantifiably get someone stronger? Can I see a trend in it by how much?
 
I don't know. How would you see that in real life practice?

I have people come to me asking for coaching to get stronger. They pay me. If they don't get stronger, they don't come back, and I can't blame them. I would treat any coach or program the same way myself. And the way I look at coaches and programs is simple, does it quantifiably get someone stronger? Can I see a trend in it by how much?

I think there is a big split in the trainer world between those who coach people for whom:

--The want to be strong enough to 'enjoy life, play with my kids, do yard work without throwing out my back'

vs

--They have well defined and quantifiable strength goals, perhaps tied into a particular competitive sport

As for your point about coaches, I've fired trainers who:

--Understood anatomy / biomechanics worse than me
--Didn't know how to write a custom program
--Thought the goal of training was to make the client tired
--Could lead a group fitness class and were good group cheerleaders, but were terrible at 1-on-1 training
--Had lots of certs, but no record of athletic accomplishments (either themselves or an athlete client) so no 1st hand knowledge of how to do S&C in a competitive context

To be fair, many of those same trainers had great reputations with some of my more 'casual' colleagues, so there is probably something to be said for this more holistic / lifestyle approach.

(I'm just not in that holistic group)
 
I think there is a big split in the trainer world between those who coach people for whom:

--The want to be strong enough to 'enjoy life, play with my kids, do yard work without throwing out my back'

vs

--They have well defined and quantifiable strength goals, perhaps tied into a particular competitive sport

As for your point about coaches, I've fired trainers who:

--Understood anatomy / biomechanics worse than me
--Didn't know how to write a custom program
--Thought the goal of training was to make the client tired
--Could lead a group fitness class and were good group cheerleaders, but were terrible at 1-on-1 training
--Had lots of certs, but no record of athletic accomplishments (either themselves or an athlete client) so no 1st hand knowledge of how to do S&C in a competitive context

To be fair, many of those same trainers had great reputations with some of my more 'casual' colleagues, so there is probably something to be said for this more holistic / lifestyle approach.

(I'm just not in that holistic group)

I understand that there is a competitive segment and then the health/gpp/whatever segment. However, even if I was in the second category, I would expect some quantifiable metrics for success. After all, why not?

I see your point and agree that lots of people just want to feel that they have exercised. At times I'm even so bold as to call out a certain brand of very popular exercise. Great that they like it. But when it comes to the metrics, why do we have to be vague instead of getting some solid data?

I would expect everyone wants to see a solid drop on the scale when they want to lose weight. Why not the same when we get to strength or fitness? Why not make it measurable?
 
You could qualify the burpee challenge by comparing start to finish HR changes for time, overall time decrease per, height attained for explosive pushup, height attained on vertical leap.

For progression you could incorporate OAPU, single leg vertical jump etc etc.

The observations re general and sport specific trainers and approaches are totally valid, both being specialties of sorts.

The SST doesn’t have to deal with compliance issues and motivation should be accomplished with measurable improvement.

The GPP trainer has to deal with overcoming sedentary inertia, possible metabolic issues, lack of athletic proprioception and basic lifting mechanics, plus a huge dose of “trusting the process".
 
I don't know. How would you see that in real life practice?

I have people come to me asking for coaching to get stronger. They pay me. If they don't get stronger, they don't come back, and I can't blame them. I would treat any coach or program the same way myself. And the way I look at coaches and programs is simple, does it quantifiably get someone stronger? Can I see a trend in it by how much?
When I read the OP I assumed @Adam R Mundorf is not working with a coach. My point was regarding self governance of training.
My point was that unless you have built a habit of regular exercise an outcome based approach may falter because you are not observing a result (e.g. being stronger) in the initial period.
For example Reload is based on 5x5 linear progression over five weeks followed by continued mass progression with a tapered volume for a further three weeks.
With or without a coach or trainer, if you can’t stick with this programme longer than three or four weeks you will, by definition of programme design, have failed to observedly get stronger. No PRs.
With Maslov, you can be approaching "self actualisation" but if there is a war and you lose your home and its security you have to refocus on solving this base necessity...
The analogy, which I admit is imperfect, was to state that without a belief in the process you will not reach the point of observing the outcome.
Or in a StrongFirst self-coached environment, S&S first teaches you the Process goal approach, then with its step loading teaches you the Outcome goal approach.
I don't see how programme hopping relates to a coached environment unless the coaches objective is to just randomly smoke the client to the point they can't move without discomfort for a few days.
 
I think it's great that people develop habits that make them happier, healthier and more capable.

But I wouldn't really ever expect such from a comparison of strength training programs. Maybe I'm in a different crowd.

When it comes to strength training, I expect it to make the trainee stronger, as simple as it is. And the developed strength should be easily measured. After all, why not? Any kind of vague claims smell of quackery to me.
Just looking at process/outcome goals. They aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't achieve your outcome goals then your process goals are either insufficient or incorrect (or you were working with a very aggressive or unrealistic timeline). Process goals put the focus on what it takes to get to our desired outcome, and it sidesteps some of the potentially unhealthy mindsets that can come from be overly focused on the outcome. This process creates behavior change that allows you to reach the intended outcome by focusing on the process. A process goal gives you milestones to accomplish that are within your control.

Strength training should have a specific outcome - getting stronger. Focusing on the process of training doesn't take that away, it shifts the focus. If the outcome is a 300lb bench press, then there is a process that you can implement that, when consistently implemented over a long enough time, will take you there. If our goal is to bench press 300lbs and our process involves doing a 50 burpee a day for a month challenge... Well you might hit all your process goals and steps and etc. and complete that challenge and be no closer to benching 300 than you were a month ago. Process goals still need to be directed.

I'm not trying to be coy here. A training plan (or program) is essentially a series of process goals. You need to train this many days a week. You need to squat this many days a week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight this week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight the next week. When you miss - how do you shift the plan? Is there a fixed end point (e.g. a competition) or is there a floating end point? Implementing a good training plan requires more than just writing it - scheduling training time, eating appropriately, sleeping enough, minimizing outside stress (maybe learning to meditate), etc. We build a process (a lifestyle that allows us to follow that program) that provides us an outcome. If we've already built that lifestyle, we don't need to constantly go back to how we need to focus on it or pat ourselves on our back for "accomplishing it again." It depends on where you're starting from. But you can still look at consistency - maybe I only hit 80% of my planned sessions. Why? What happened? Am I just a dirtbag that isn't committed enough, did something crazy happen, do I need to look at implementing something that will bring that 80% consistency up to 100%? Maybe Tuesday I stayed up late drinking and watching The Two Towers so when my alarm went off at 5AM to get up and train I hit the snooze and missed my session. Well, there's a couple process goals and skills we could implement right there so we can minimize missing a session because of that.

A perfectly implemented training plan can be sabotaged the day of the meet by food poisoning, or catching a bug during travel. If you are only focused on setting a new PR, you failed. If you focused on the training - you still succeeded, despite the setback. You balance a failure that maybe was outside your control with the success of training - and maybe that failure shows you what you need to work on next (e.g. you competed at NAGA and your opponent triangled you in the first 30s - well maybe even though you implemented your training plan perfectly, you now know a hole in your game you need to train up).

That probably was overly talkative. That coffee was strong. Hopefully it cleared some things up.
 
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