Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.So maybe this isn't answering the question of Q&D being an applicable way to train self defense skills but my perspective is this:
Street fights aren't a weight class sport. The bigger stronger person is usually going to win. I have not rolled with any skill level female (usually 50-60% of my bodyweight) that my strength doesn't usually override their skill. Males are a little different because their strength per pound is better so even a small male can do well with decent skill mostly due to efficiency and allowing fatigue to set in on their opponent.
Long story short, hip escapes, arm bars, and deadlifting and getting as strong as possible is what I would train more for getting in a street fight.
AmenI prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high.
Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.
Also off topic, but this is worth reading up on for anyone interested in self-defense. This guy fought Jon Jones for the UFC light heavyweight belt and had a hard time with a home intruder. One punch knockouts are the exception, not the rule.
UFC's Smith fights home intruder; man charged
Luke Haberman was arrested and charged with first-degree criminal trespass after he entered the Nebraska home of UFC fighter Anthony Smith unlawfully early Sunday morning, according to police.www.espn.com
Definitely way off topic, but I have to respond to get my daily testosterone boost.Definitely off topic, but I prefer chokes to arm bars when the stakes are high. If the stakes aren’t high, joint locks or just positional control is fine. But I’ve seen people fight with broken arms, power out of arm bars, and even continue fighting after a “verbal tap”. No matter how tough someone is, they will go to sleep in 4-8 seconds with a choke.
Also off topic, but this is worth reading up on for anyone interested in self-defense. This guy fought Jon Jones for the UFC light heavyweight belt and had a hard time with a home intruder. One punch knockouts are the exception, not the rule.
UFC's Smith fights home intruder; man charged
Luke Haberman was arrested and charged with first-degree criminal trespass after he entered the Nebraska home of UFC fighter Anthony Smith unlawfully early Sunday morning, according to police.www.espn.com
Just like everything, it depends.Definitely way off topic, but I have to respond to get my daily testosterone boost.
Combat sport training will definitely give somebody a huge advantage over most of the population as far as defending yourself. But you have to remember the techniques in those sports teach ways to score points or attain victory within the context of the sport and its rules.
The essence of true self defense is to absolutely disable, or to temporarily disable or distract opponent to enable escape from the situation.
For instance, boxing-type punches don't always translate to effective self defense weapons, especially when the boxer is not trained at striking specific vulnerable targets, or making a correct fist for striking without a glove. Broken hands/fingers can result along not getting the job done.
Conversely, a karate-type punch is not effective in generating enough knock-down power while wearing gloves in a ring. And, many of the vulnerable targets taught in karate would be illegal and too dangerous in a sporting context.
All that said, a really effective karate punch may take years to learn correctly.
I used to assist with a self-defense course taught to women. Most of the striking techniques taught were simple, but dangerously effective, such as eye gouges, groin kicks, other soft vital spots. No punching, typically open hand strikes, maybe a hammer fist to the clavicle, etc. There was also a lot covered on escaping from holds and pins. The most important thing taught was having situational awareness, and avoiding most encounters if possible.
To tie back into the original post, I believe the essential part of personal self defense is mental preparation and simple, easily executed techniques that will disable the opponent to allow yourself to escape or render yourself safe. Strength and conditioning are great enhancements, but not necessarily essential.
JMO
Just like everything, it depends.
If your goal is to be resilient to most attacks, not training primarily in the fundamentals of combat sports (boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ) will significantly limit your effectiveness. If you can't hit a moving person squarely in the face with a 16oz glove on, there's no way you will be able to poke them in the eyes with enough accuracy and force to end the fight under significant stress. Or stop them cold with a perfect groin kick or attack "soft vital parts". For many people, just training "self defense" or combatives lulls them into a false sense of confidence.
In this particular situation, I think most would agree that if Anthony Smith couldn't stop this guy with a barrage of attacks, a palm strike or groin kick from a 120lb female likely would have ended disastrously.
Just like everything, it depends.
If your goal is to be resilient to most attacks, not training primarily in the fundamentals of combat sports (boxing, wrestling, Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ) will significantly limit your effectiveness. If you can't hit a moving person squarely in the face with a 16oz glove on, there's no way you will be able to poke them in the eyes with enough accuracy and force to end the fight under significant stress. Or stop them cold with a perfect groin kick or attack "soft vital parts". For many people, just training "self defense" or combatives lulls them into a false sense of confidence.
In this particular situation, I think most would agree that if Anthony Smith couldn't stop this guy with a barrage of attacks, a palm strike or groin kick from a 120lb female likely would have ended disastrously.
I'd always choose to adapt core MMA fundamentals to the street than just "train" street. Someone with a year of high school wrestling experience and a little boxing or BJJ would be a significant threat to someone who trained only combatives all day.
So while I agree that training for self-defense can be different from training for sport, I'd argue the gap is much smaller than people think. Most of the time, it's less about the actual techniques than it is about the training methods - which are what enables you to pull off those techniques against a live, resisting opponent.
Yes, there are definitely more variables for sure - and nothing is guaranteed in real life regardless of training. There's certainly a mental shift that needs to happen in a life-or-death scenario - it's not the same as fighting in a ring in terms of the level of violence you may encounter.I believe that the gap can be huge, especially in a psychological sense.
Now, if Anthony Smith had encountered the same guy in his domain - the cage - I don't believe for a second that the fight would have lasted nearly as long. Drugs maye have played a role here, but so did the mentioned psychological factors, I believe. Being experienced in full contact at the highest level, does not mean that you are prepared to keep an equally sharp focus during an home invasion with many unknown variables.
And, while stepping inside the ring or the cage requires a lot of mental toughness, it is not still a controlled enviroment. Of course, I agree that being skilled in grappling and striking is the best technical starting point. But I have seen skilled grapplers being thrown out of their element on nightclub floors, dealing with multiple opponents and strikes thrown with bottles. Yes, this will be extremeley difficult to handle for anyone, but preparing for it in training is clearly an advantage that is not relevant if training purely for competition. My kicks are rather effective in combat sports, but encounters in previous jobs have typically occured at close distances when I have not been able to kick.
This story may very well be excaggerated, but it does show an important point. A rather small Nepalese guy killed three robbers and injured a handful more, taking them on with a knife. Factors that I believe came in to play:
- As a retired gurkha, he has most likely experienced real war scenarios and crosses the psychological/moral barriers of taking a life
- Using the kukri knife is all natural to him, with his cultural background and military experience
This gives him tremendous assets in such an extreme situation. The retired soldier would probably not be a force to be reckoned with in MMA, but still a lot more dangerous man for criminals to encounter in a real life situation.
Wow... this thread kind of went to a dark place!
There's a very interesting question here of how a regular civilian can ever really get the sense of what it feels like to face someone who honestly wants to hurt you. Tying it back to the original topic - maybe insanely glycolic training sessions are the closest most of us will ever come (hopefully).
Tony Sentmanat who is a tactical guy has plenty of videos regarding his training (shooting and physical preparation).In my private training, I added heavy sandbag getups (varying between 30 kilos and 50 kilos), some sprinting and walking under weight. All good, all wholesome, and still adding more power to my 49-year old body
Sports fights are uncertain and risky and real fights totally unpredictable and guaranteed to get you hurt to some degree and so why the soft skills of awareness, avoidance and escape are no.1 for self defence.
If forced to fight then being able to stay calm but focused despite the chaos seems the most important attribute to develop.
After that, any form of training against a resisting opponent (combat sports) is gonna help massively but still not guarantee anything. Being strong and conditioned is gonna help massively too but again not guarantee anything.
Combative's training working on targeting weak points of the body is useful to include within drilling but of course has to be simulated. Biting, gouging and pressure points can all be incorporated into sparring with resistance but only if training with people you trust and are skilled enough to control these moves enough though the drills are ‘real’ trying to actually strike and roll competitively.
If any of this training is so fatiguing that when you walk out of the gym your totally spent then you’re a sitting duck if attacked at that moment. Same if you have severe DOMS the next day and can’t move, your a walking target and why Pavel makes a great point in his works of the tactical community needing a totally different approach to strength training than the typical bodybuilding methods as having legs that are shot because it was ‘leg day yesterday’ is unacceptable as Pavel says.
Makes me think any training for self defence should be similar, slow adaptation to be able to do more and more in terms of work capacity but minimising the fatigue should be essential considerations for designing the sessions. Part of this would involve pressure testing technique and conditioning but it should be done where the aim is to remain as relaxed as possible whilst moving fast and continuously breathing the whole time with the drills scaled to suit the participants abilities so they are capable of keeping themselves in that state rather than be ‘beasted’ and just become good at flailing in a ball of tension trying to survive excessively hard drilling with the instructor thinking its preparing them for reality when actually it’s breaking them physically, teaching them poor technique and mentally making them want to quit the training.
Many similarities between StrongFirst methods that carry over to combat sports and self defence.
Supplemental strength and conditioning should support the development of the main training not hinder it and so many of StrongFirsts methods are perfectly set yp for this with S&S, A&A and for the experienced Q&D being perfect additions that increase work capacity and strength without interfering with the main sessions a s don’t leave you wiped out. If the main sessions are set up similar then you would still have enough in the tank to defend yourself the moment you walk out the gym or be mostly recovered the next day with minimal fatigue or soreness the next day.
I could go on but thought id share these thoughts here as it helps me to record my own thought processes to review later and might be of help to others here in the group.
Dave.