Kettlebell Q&D How often? (3x vs. everyday)

[spc]

Hello.
I'm reading the forum for a while and like to salute all of you strong people!
I started S+S in March 2020 with a 20kg and 26kg bell. Made progress pretty soon and love it all the way.
I'm not about going any heavier. I'm like 70kg/ 154 lbs and I feel complete satisfied and pretty strong.
Soon after studying the S+S revisisted book I bought Q+D as well. Did some - but it wasn't until recently I decided to go for it. (Did swings and push ups alternating with S+S)
Lately I trained a couple of month like: Mo, We, Fri, = S+S (timeless 26kg) and Tue, Thu, Sa, = C+P with sqt l/r. (20kg/ 10 min non stop) and some indian clubbell work with 2kg (double), 4kg (single) and 15kg (single) clubs as a "warm up."
So, "heavy" and "light" days alternating. Worked like a charm. (Trail running after S+S and rucking (30lbs) after "light" work (C+P +sqt) is my usual training, additional cycling and yoga)
This (c+p with jerking the bell after the sqt), I guess, prepared my hands quiet good for the snatch. That's what I'm going to do now. I'm in the second week of the protocol with snatches only and alternating 5/4 - 2/10 for 3x max (12 min).
So long story short:
The book says: Twice is good. Three times is better. (A week that is)
Than it says : 4 times has a diminishing effect.
And it also offers the opportunity to train every day. If the dice says no, you go for 40 reps. Right?
So, I understand (I guess) what this all means.. "Everyone choose for himself", as statet in the book.
But since I'm going "full throttle" in two weeks I'd like to know, what is the method of choice.
I have no time limiting factors or lack of motivation.
So, please tell me: 3 times or everyday? As I'm going to train anyway something. I'm a tai chi practitioner and some couple of snatches won't hurt, I guess.
Thanks for your attention and insights..

 

[Adachi]

In my daily training and double volume S&S experience, I think I found that I still got additional returns. But while my volume was at 200% I probably only got 150% training effect. Roughly speaking. More, just not that much more.

 

[spc]

I see.
But S&s is a whole different concept, isn't ? It's based on 100 reps, no matter what. While Q&D is waving? So even on a daily basis it will never be that much. 100 is max. Which happens every now and than, depending on your roll..
Am I missing something?
BTW.: 200% - well, why not. Personally I'm on the "less is more" road to strength..

 

[rwleonard]

The near daily training option was in the additional variety section, for use after months/years of the meat and potatoes portion of the book has brought you to a plateau. So, 2 or 3 times a week.

 

[Adachi]

Also snatching daily did beat me up a bit when I was alternating 32kg for sets of 5 and 24kg for sets of 10 up to 100 reps per day in grease the groove.

My body ended up insisting on days off so I continued alternating swings and presses one lift per day. They were basically there as rest days from snatches.

 

[Starlord]

I remember going through a phase of doing A&A Snatches 4 times a week. Starting at 32kg and ending at 48kg. Monday 20mins, Tuesday 40mins, Thursday 30mins and Friday 60mins.

I really enjoyed the results. I think you will enjoy using snatches with a Q&D protocol.

In regards to diminishing returns. It is a very real thing. For you as an individual you have to make the decision of what level of diminishing results are acceptable for YOU.

If you are a professional ultra runner it doesn't matter that the 6th session of the week is only yielding 5% adaptation and the 6th is only yielding 1% adaptation. You are trying to squeeze every last drop out of your training and lifestyle factors.

Are you though?

 

[spc]

The near daily training option was in the additional variety section, for use after months/years of the meat and potatoes portion of the book has brought you to a plateau. So, 2 or 3 times a week.

Well, thank you. That's what I needed to understand.
I found it a bit confusing to have three options.
So maybe in a couple of month or next year or something.. (If I'm able to stick with it for so long... I'll give it a try)
I'm not sure if I skip my bodweight training completely. It's just that imprecise fear of loosing something. But I guess it'll be nothing that can't be attained back.
So thank's alot. That really solved my "problem".

 

[spc]

In regards to diminishing returns. It is a very real thing. For you as an individual you have to make the decision of what level of diminishing results are acceptable for YOU.

Yes, I understand.
I was doing exclusively bodyweight for almost all my active sportslife. So.. Im not loosing much in regards of lifting power.
And I was very pleased with S&S plus some bodyweight for the last years...
So let's see if "The Tsar" delivers... Would be very cool, though...

 

[Starlord]

Yes, I understand.
I was doing exclusively bodyweight for almost all my active sportslife. So.. Im not loosing much in regards of lifting power.
And I was very pleased with S&S plus some bodyweight for the last years...
So let's see if "The Tsar" delivers... Would be very cool, though...

Progression is addictive.

 

[Manuel Fortin]

Based on my experience:

- Daily snatches can be hard on the hands. This is especially true in Q&D using explosive heavy snatches.

- If you use the right weight, unless you are in excellent shape and are used to snatching high volume, you should not want to snatch the next day after a 100 snatches day. On the latter, if you still want to do more after 5 cycles (100 snatches), you are doing something wrong. The first time you do it, you should feel it. If the 100 days are easy, the weight is too light or the snatches are not explosive enough.

- If you really want to train the other days, I suggest some low volume of things that are not covered in the program (squats, zone 2 locomotion, etc...)? In my opinion, much more useful for general health and fitness. Of course, you may want to run a few blocks of only Q&D once in a while, but if you have time, doing other stuff would probably be better.

- I have done both A+A snatches and Q&D over the last few years, and I found 3 times a week to be more than enough. Just to see how you can progress, in October I had not snatched or done anything in the gym since May (just played tennis all summer long). I got back to snatching at the end of October and had trouble getting to 60 A+A snatches with my go to 32 kg (12 sets of 5). This week I did in one session 180 snatches and 90 pushups (I do 5 SN, 5SN, 5PU, rinse and repeat). In less then 3 months, I tripled the volume I could handle in a single session. And I only snatch 2 weeks out of every 4, so about 6 sessions each month. I am not even sure I would have progressed as much training more.

I have no time limiting factors or lack of motivation.

Then recovery will be your limiting factor. Instead of going all out and then crashing in 4 weeks, I would suggest the opposite. Try the program 3 times a week, with the appropriate kettlebell and technique, and if you still feel you need more in a few months, then add more. I am an expert at taking good programs and adding more until I overextend myself. This is a very frequent mistake in people who have a lot of time and a lot of motivation.

All that being said, you may have the background and genetics to handle more than the book suggests. Everyone is different.

 

[spc]

I suggest some low volume of things that are not covered in the program

Totally agree.

Instead of going all out

But is it all out when you roll, lets say: Today training - No = 40reps?
I think the protocol is smartly made, so that you need to roll alot of sixes to go "all out".
But I'm not saying that even this can/would be not still demanding, especially on ones hands.
And I really don't want to go "all out". I just want to go close to the threshold - once in a while.
Thanks for your thoughts. Makes good sense. I appreciate it!

Progression is addictive.

That's the trap I want to avoid.
During my S&S time I changed to bodyweight for some weeks, to make that 26kg feel heavy again. So - I try not to become a muscle junkie.
I remember my first kb about 2006/2007. 16kg (plastic) It was really heavy and because of its concrete filling pretty huge.
I did everything wrong. (Watched "Enter the Kettlebell" on Youtube and went happily swinging my path towards herniated discs.)
After suggery in 2014 I revovered completely but I thought I'll never lift anything more than a shopping bag. But I gave it another try. Hardstyle Swings and TGU's worked better than anything. My biggest mistake was to think I understand S&S after seeing it once on Youtube. The first version (100 swings/5 min) was just killing me, because of poor technique.
Anyway - I prefer to deload once in a while instead of eternal progress.
Healthy strength so to say..

 

[Starlord]

That's the trap I want to avoid.
During my S&S time I changed to bodyweight for some weeks, to make that 26kg feel heavy again. So - I try not to become a muscle junkie.
I remember my first kb about 2006/2007. 16kg (plastic) It was really heavy and because of its concrete filling pretty huge.
I did everything wrong. (Watched "Enter the Kettlebell" on Youtube and went happily swinging my path towards herniated discs.)
After suggery in 2014 I revovered completely but I thought I'll never lift anything more than a shopping bag. But I gave it another try. Hardstyle Swings and TGU's worked better than anything. My biggest mistake was to think I understand S&S after seeing it once on Youtube. The first version (100 swings/5 min) was just killing me, because of poor technique.
Anyway - I prefer to deload once in a while instead of eternal progress.
Healthy strength so to say..

I laughed so hard at this. You don't accidentally become massive and muscled. It reminds me of girls who don't want to lift weights because they don't want to become bulky.

You shouldn't shy away from building muscle and becoming stronger. There is a long list of health benefits to be gained from it.

As well as it preparing you better for unseen challenges in life as well.

 

[spc]

Laughing is the best medicine.
It's not accidentely that I don't become bulky. It's by intention.
I just choose not to.
I'm ready to take any given challenge in life. Even without swinging the beast.
Believe it or not.

 

[LarryB]

One thing i took for granted my first time through q&d was not respecting the overspeed eccentrics portion of the program. I thought i was doing it, but i wasn’t really. I finally read viking warrior conditioning and used the 16k to really get the feel for the overspeed eccentric.

 

[spc]

With swings I'm getting it. With snatches I'm rather cautious.
Any suggestions on this one?

 

[LarryB]

With swings I'm getting it. With snatches I'm rather cautious.
Any suggestions on this one?

Just go light, it actually really helped teach me how to come out of the top position. Just pull down in a straight line (lean back a little, i like to internally rotate my shoulder/elbow/wrist too)

 

[Adachi]

With swings I'm getting it. With snatches I'm rather cautious.
Any suggestions on this one?

If you mean over speed eccentrics, I would suggest: try alternating heavier and lighter bells, and try snatching your lighter bell with force that's more like your heavier bell.

Although, caution is a very correct attitude to take.

Do not overestimate your abilities. It's a type of supra maximal training that can impose extremely heavy stresses on your soft tissues.

There are plenty of divots in my yard from over estimating my ability to snatch.

 

[LarryB]

+1 to going heavy/light. I forgot about doing that.

 

[spc]

I'll keep that in mind.
As for now, I snatch 20kg. I don't dare to go heavier. (I never even tried)
The snatch is very demanding and the forces set free are pretty impressive. I think I'll snatch that thing until strong and than go up every now and than. (Maybe first without speed excentrics - no, not maybe.. for sure without..)

 

[Manuel Fortin]

I know this is not what you want to hear, but from all this thread, I think that Q&D is not the right program for you now. You need to snatch heavier and have very good technique. You could do swings+pushups maybe if you are really set on Q&D. Else, you could keep on doing S&S and practice your snatches until
A - you get to simple, or at least are able to do the timed standard S&S with the 26kg, if that's not already the case.
B - you develop strength and technique required to do the overspeed eccentric snatches.

As I see it now, you want to take a program that is intended to be practiced a few days a week with a heavy weight and do it every day with a light weight, and possibly without the overspeed eccentrics. This is no longer the same program. Of course, you can do whatever you want, but at this point, you're not really doing Q&D, you are designing your own program.

Also, it seems you already got injured with kettlebells in the past. Don't do the same mistake again. In Q&D, you are supposed to induce fatigue. Doing a movement you are not extremely proficient at while tired is a recipe for disaster.

I'm not saying "don't do Q&D", but I would suggest to do it later in your development.

If you are fed up with S&S, you could do A+A snatches to develop your technique. Do sets of 3-5 a few times a week, with plenty of rest, waving the volume. This is much more forgiving. In a few months, when you master the snatch, you could give Q&D a go.