Barbell Question about front squat depth (why can't we stop at parallel?)

[TimmyCK]

In Beyond Bodybuilding (page 191 in my version), Pavel says, "[for front squats] always go rock bottom. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed here, high front squats are too rough on the knees."
I know the party is always right but I'm a nerd so I'd love to know what those reasons are! Is it because front squats place higher shear forces on the knee?

 

[william bad butt]

Depends on goals. I only barbell squat to parallel, or maybe a hair lower.

Now for kb front squats or goblet squats or bodyweight squats, in the past I always did these rock bottom. But recently, the last year, I'm only doing these to parallel too. I am too hyper mobile in the hips. This may be a good thing, in general, but I have goals to squat (powerlift) bigger weights and this has been holding me back.

I would squat as low as you can with proper form. Some people start having issues with a deep loaded squat. Note, everybody should be able to do a deep unloaded (or lightly loaded) squat. One of the biggest issues is butt wink.

I front squat to parallel. My front squat is ugly though. Wide stance, hip dominant, leaning over too much, exactly as you would imagine a powerlifter trying to front squat.

 

[TimmyCK]

Depends on goals. I only barbell squat to parallel, or maybe a hair lower.

Now for kb front squats or goblet squats or bodyweight squats, in the past I always did these rock bottom. But recently, the last year, I'm only doing these to parallel too. I am too hyper mobile in the hips. This may be a good thing, in general, but I have goals to squat (powerlift) bigger weights and this has been holding me back.

I would squat as low as you can with proper form. Some people start having issues with a deep loaded squat. Note, everybody should be able to do a deep unloaded (or lightly loaded) squat. One of the biggest issues is butt wink.

I front squat to parallel. My front squat is ugly though. Wide stance, hip dominant, leaning over too much, exactly as you would imagine a powerlifter trying to front squat.

Thanks, sounds like good advice! I am mostly just wondering why Pavel suggests back squatting to parallel but says front squatting to parallel is rough on the knees - how are the mechanics of the two movements different as far as the knee is concerned?

 

[william bad butt]

I think it has to do with center of mass. The closer the bar is to your front (front squats, olympic or high bar squats, zercher) the more your center of mass is to the front. Vs when you do a barbell back squat (especially powerlifting or low bar style) the center of mass is near your rear.

That center of mass needs to be aligned above your mid foot, right? Therefore, to accomplish this with a low bar back squat, this requires you to lean forward more (bar travels forward relative to body). This means the stress is placed on your hips and not the knee (shins are more vertical, perpendicular to ground).

In a front squat, you lean back more (relative to bar). This means that the stress is placed more on your knees and (shins are not vertical, they are at an angle with the ground).

 

[Steve A]

In Beyond Bodybuilding (page 191 in my version), Pavel says, "[for front squats] always go rock bottom. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed here, high front squats are too rough on the knees."
I know the party is always right but I'm a nerd so I'd love to know what those reasons are! Is it because front squats place higher shear forces on the knee?

I don't know Pavel's reason, but a 90 degree angle between shin and femur has the highest stresses on the knee cartilage. Perhaps with a front squat, where some people think is parallel is close to this.

 

[Hardartery]

Intra-joint knee pressure maxes out just above parallel, and falls off as you descend past parallel. Your muscle activation also changes pretty dramatically as you cross that line as well. This is the reasoning behind so much insistence on squatting below parallel. Ideally, you need to hit at least parallel as a general rule for long term knee health. That aside, full ROM on front squats is going to help general balanced development of the knee. It also leads to better positioning in general on a front squat, it helps keep the weight over the ankles where it ought to be.

 

[watchnerd]

In Beyond Bodybuilding (page 191 in my version), Pavel says, "[for front squats] always go rock bottom. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed here, high front squats are too rough on the knees."
I know the party is always right but I'm a nerd so I'd love to know what those reasons are! Is it because front squats place higher shear forces on the knee?

You certainly don't need to go full a#@-to-grass / rock bottom on all front squats.

I'm not a bodybuilder, but a weightlifter, which means I front squat more frequently than most people, plus get extra front squats from cleans, and I don't go ATG all the time.

That being said, I always go to at least parallel, usually lower, for the reasons discussed above.

Full hams-on-calves, I save for heavy cleans.

 

[Mark Limbaga]

Most can squat deeper with front squats so as long as your alignment and mobility are good I say go as comfortably low as you can in alignment for your goals..

I personally squat deepest with goblet squats during the warmup, others as long as I break parallel

 

[Alan Mackey]

In Beyond Bodybuilding (page 191 in my version), Pavel says, "[for front squats] always go rock bottom. For reasons that are too complex to be discussed here, high front squats are too rough on the knees."
I know the party is always right but I'm a nerd so I'd love to know what those reasons are! Is it because front squats place higher shear forces on the knee?

At a 90° angle, the stress on the knee is quite high. Besides, going past parallel allows your glutes and hamstrings to act as “brakes”, in order to reverse the movement.

You don’t need to go rock bottom all the time (watch out for the dreaded butt wink), but you should always break parallel at least (the crease of your hip should be slightly below your knee).

 

[TimmyCK]

At a 90° angle, the stress on the knee is quite high. Besides, going past parallel allows your glutes and hamstrings to act as “brakes”, in order to reverse the movement.

You don’t need to go rock bottom all the time (watch out for the dreaded butt wink), but you should always break parallel at least (the crease of your hip should be slightly below your knee).

But why is it higher with front squats compared to back squats?

 

[Hardartery]

But why is it higher with front squats compared to back squats?

Who said that it is?

 

[TimmyCK]

Who said that it is?

Pavel in BB. He recommends back squatting to parallel to build the legs (p. 163) but specifically mentions on page 191 that for front squats you have to go rock bottom.

 

[Hardartery]

I don't think that necessarily implies any greater danger of injury or anything, just that you are largely wasting your time if you don't sink them. I mean, what's the point if they are the same as back squats but less comfortable?

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

Ok, my 2 cents: I did Anderson SQ yesterday. I put the pins one hole too low by accident. The depth was well below parallel and squat felt easy. So I experimented and raised the pins for every set. Normally I use just below parallel. That and one above felt the hardest, I can't tell, almost felt like the one above was harder. In this case the pins were on my hip height with weightlifting shoes. Well shoes / no shoes doesn't matter actually. Two holes above normal felt easier again.

 

[Alan Mackey]

But why is it higher with front squats compared to back squats?

Front squats are more quad-centric, so it makes sense that the stress placed on the knees is somewhat higher.

I dislike going to parallel, irrespective of the type of squat used.

 

[william bad butt]

Ok, my 2 cents: I did Anderson SQ yesterday. I put the pins one hole too low by accident. The depth was well below parallel and squat felt easy. So I experimented and raised the pins for every set. Normally I use just below parallel. That and one above felt the hardest, I can't tell, almost felt like the one above was harder. In this case the pins were on my hip height with weightlifting shoes. Well shoes / no shoes doesn't matter actually. Two holes above normal felt easier again.

I believe this. About 1 year ago, my coach told me that I was squatting too deep. Even my 24kg kbell goblet squats, he said quit going rock bottom. I am too loose in the hips. "If I want to squat big numbers I need to tighten up in my hips", he said. This seemed counter I intuitive to me but I started trying it.

I learned that my stretch reflex was deep below parallel. Stopping at parallel was actually harder, for a while. I eventually adjusted.

 

[Timo Keskitalo]

Stopping at parallel was actually harder, for a while. I eventually adjusted.

So, did it pay off?

 

[Steve A]

But why is it higher with front squats compared to back squats?

A 90 degree knee angle for a SQ occurs a couple inches higher than it does for a FSQ. You can see this for yourself if you look at some videos.

 

[william bad butt]

So, did it pay off?

I think it is too soon to claim success, even though it has been 1 year. 2 months ago, I squatted 95% of my Sept 2019 max. It wasn't real hard (easier than 95% should be), so that is promising. Keep in mind I haven't really been doing my powerlifting squat (since I had no intentions of competing this year cause of the pandemic). I was happy with my 95% considering I did no peak and I've been mostly front squatting (paused) and box squatting with a SSB.

To soon to tell. I havent realized the benefits yet. But I think I am stronger.