Quick and Dead

Simply strong

Double-Digit Post Count
I wasn’t trying to get a summary of the new book, merely trying to understand the old version as I’ve never really heard of it before. I did the same when I first read S&S - i re read the bit in enter the kettlebell on swings and get ups

I’ve actually already pre orderd the book as I need high levels of power for my sport and this looks very good for that.
 

Bauer

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
I wasn’t trying to get a summary of the new book, merely trying to understand the old version as I’ve never really heard of it before. I did the same when I first read S&S - i re read the bit in enter the kettlebell on swings and get ups

I’ve actually already pre orderd the book as I need high levels of power for my sport and this looks very good for that.
I think plan 033 was the working title of the plan, back when it was tested with different groups. SF often calls for participants for experimental plans. Therefore, plan 033 hasn't been publicly available so far, but due to it's popularity it has been mentioned here and there - for example by Peter Park on the podcast.
 

Dekapon

Triple-Digit Post Count
So we can't discuss the book, or even ask questions about it before we've bought it in blind faith??

I was only trying to figure out if it's a kettlebellprogram, calisthenics or you need to buy some new gear (or a cat) for it.
The same way I want to know that "Dunkirk" is a well made WWII-movie(not a low budget french teenage angst-drama set in the 90's) or "Finding Ultra" is biography of a guy starting doing marathons in his 40's (not about growing weed in Mexico) beforehand...

Oh, well... I'll guess I'll just hold off buying it until independent reviews on other sites are in.
 

SuperGirevik

More than 300 posts
@Dekapon I don't think there is anything wrong with asking about the book. Questions like, "who is this book for?", "how many pages is it?", or "what equipment will I need?", are all valid.

I think the problem is that if people try to summarize the book before reading it, then they might be giving out false information. Second, if someone reads it and summarizes it by saying, "you basically do OA swings for X seconds, then push-ups for X seconds, rest for X minutes"... then they basically gave out the book's "secrets". Both of these situations could potentially hurt book sales.

I personally want to know who this book is for. S&S, ETK and PTTP targeted everyone but QD seems to be targeting an advanced/specific audience.

Either way, I'll probably buy it since I enjoy Pavel's books and gaining more knowledge is always valuable.
 

wespom9

More than 500 posts
Certified Instructor
IMO, if you value something, please demonstrate that value by supporting (buying) the service or information. It's swings and pushups. Good. Time to get better at both. I've pre-ordered myself.

In the meantime, one of the pro's about the wait time: time to make sure Simple is attainable. It's been a while since I conquered it and my work capacity has diminished a bit. Get that back up to speed.
 

Nate

Triple-Digit Post Count
IMO, if you value something, please demonstrate that value by supporting (buying) the service or information. It's swings and pushups. Good. Time to get better at both. I've pre-ordered myself.

In the meantime, one of the pro's about the wait time: time to make sure Simple is attainable. It's been a while since I conquered it and my work capacity has diminished a bit. Get that back up to speed.
Agreed. At first glance, S&S is swings & get ups. Experience show's its apparent simplicity paradoxically masks its depth. I have a basic grasp of 033, but ordered the book to hopefully get a true understanding of it while also making a financial contribution so all of this, which I appreciate & have benefited from so much, can continue. I do understand that not everyone is at that place right now.
 

Simply strong

Double-Digit Post Count
And so it’s that time... someone always asks a question like this and it may as well be me in keeping with my reputation of “that guy who asks all the stupid and obvious questions”

By swings does it mean strictly 2H swings or can one run this program with 1H swings, cleans, double swings/cleans, snatches...?
Or one / some of the above?

Also is there a specific push up variation or is it open to variations like ‘the press’ from PTTP?

As I say, I’ve already pre ordered it so at this point I’m just gunning for spoilers lol
 
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Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
So we can't discuss the book, or even ask questions about it before we've bought it in blind faith??
There have been some pretty sizable sections quoted in articles and in social media posts.

Forgive me, but how can you discuss a book you haven't read? You can speculate about it but that's about all.

I was only trying to figure out if it's a kettlebellprogram, calisthenics or you need to buy some new gear (or a cat) for it.
It's a program based on principles, and the exercise selection includes both bodyweight and kettlebell exercises.

I'll also add that, once you understand the principles, you can even choose to apply to lifts the program doesn't recommend - you won't get all the benefits, and you may put yourself at increased risk of injury, but the principles can be widely applied.

IMHO, S&S and the ETK ROP are "learn the technique then follow the program" kinds of programs. Again, IMHO, Q&D is not quite that. I think you need to understand it more in order to follow it faithfully, and in particular to follow its guidance both in execution and in testing before you start it.

I hope this addresses some of your concerns.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-
 

Dekapon

Triple-Digit Post Count
Forgive me, but how can you discuss a book you haven't read? You can speculate about it but that's about all.
You don't hang around movie or book-forums do you? You discuss rumors, speculate about what's going to happen in the sequel, talk about the authors previous work, talk about if the film-directors public divorce might have influence on the tone of the coming film. All this creates a "hype" about the product,. Then if you hear from some critics that's seen the movie beforehand rave about it and talking about "it's Tarantio's best movie to date!" you'll be more interested in seeing the movie. But it goes the other way as well...

And summarize a fact based book is a good way to know if you're interested in it. "Drawdown" is a comprehensive scientific book about stopping climate change.
"Starting Strength" is a popular book about Squats, Deadlifts and bench press with a barbell.
"Jamies Italy" is a cook book and travel book with Italian recipes.
"a Brief history of time" is about Black Holes and the Big Bang written for the public.
"the Quick and the Dead" is about..... STOP!!! YOU HAVE TO BUY THE BOOK!:confused:
 
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Guy Adini

Triple-Digit Post Count
@Steve Freides - I’m writing this because I assume that the good people at S1 are genuinely interested in the opinions of their students/customers.
I, for one, am interested in the work, and will buy the Kindle edition when it’s available, in order to support S1 and in appreciation of what you are doing. Not because I have a great need for the information in the book at the moment, but because I feel that I have received much more from S1 than I have given.

I suspect that I am not the only customer with this approach to S1, and therefore think that it is in S1’s financial interests to maintain that perception of your brand.

As @Dekapon is trying to tell you, but you refuse to hear, the official S1 stance regarding the contents of the book, and of strong endurance in general, leave people feeling that you are now trying to monetize the brand, and have become a less reliable source of information in the process.

This was felt when people were discussing their strong endurance experiences here (“I’m doing 044. Sorry, can’t say what it is”), and I believe that has contributed to the decreased activity in these forums.

It is of course S1’s how to act in this manner, and within your rights to monetize - but loyal customers will probably be lost.

P.S - please don’t take this as a personal offense. You come across as a very good guy. It’s the official company motto that I (among others) have a problem with.
 

Steve Freides

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Senior Certified Instructor
You don't hang around movie or book-forums do you?
You’re right, I don’t.

@Guy Adini, thank you for sharing your opinion and for explaining in detail.

To be completely honest with you, I have given almost no thought over the years to what StrongFirst considers proprietary, simply because that’s not part of my responsibility here, and even before I was part of the HQ staff, I still didn’t concern myself with it - the ideas being discussed aren’t my creations and I choose to simply respect the wishes of the authors and originators.

I will pass your post along to others at HQ. Again, thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts.

-S-
 

Kozushi

More than 2500 posts
A lot is told us in the "Tale of Two Leopards" post on this site. I was happy to see that a wrestler was involved in the trials and he came out the better for it. As I'm a wrestler too, I'm happy that the program takes my kind of sport into consideration.
 

Sean M

Quadruple-Digit Post Count
@Guy Adini I think part of the disconnect is that the protocols were developed by leadership and tested among SFG’s and those under their tutelage (as “guinea pigs”), and participants in SE/All-Terrain Conditioning seminars, etc. Regular Joe’s like us (non-SFG, home practitioners not “under” an SFG) weren’t privy to it. I’m ok with that, there were nuggets/hints of the SE protocols in articles and forum posts, but I also understand not wanting to release something before it is ready. Like, I was excited for the Star Wars Episode IX trailer a few months ago, but was also fine waiting until it was good and ready (rather than a rough cut).
 

Dasho

Triple-Digit Post Count
So if S/S is at its core "100 swings and 10 getups" Q&D is "Swings for 30 seconds and push-ups"?
"Starting Strength" is a popular book about Squats, Deadlifts and bench press with a barbell.
I notice you don't include any set and rep schemes in your "summary" of Starting Strength. Notice the difference?

I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that a lot of people who "don't have their copy anymore" or "want a summary" are essentially asking for the exact content in a roundabout way. Not necessarily accusing you of doing this; look at Reddit's kettlebell section, for example. They basically openly share the S&S program.
 

Guy Adini

Triple-Digit Post Count
I notice you don't include any set and rep schemes in your "summary" of Starting Strength. Notice the difference?

I think a lot of frustration comes from the fact that a lot of people who "don't have their copy anymore" or "want a summary" are essentially asking for the exact content in a roundabout way. Not necessarily accusing you of doing this; look at Reddit's kettlebell section, for example. They basically openly share the S&S program.
I disagree. The Starting Strength book is several hundred pages long. To say that all the content would be stolen if someone told you the rep scheme (3x5, but you didn’t hear it from me! ), is really to say that the rest is just fluff - which it isn’t.

Same goes for Q&D, Strong Endurance and S&S. Is S1 really asking people to pay around $1K for a rep scheme in Strong Endurance? And if they have substantial content - why should they be afraid of a rep scheme coming out?

Does it make sense that S&S should be a secret that is only available if you buy the book? Or rather that you buy it in order to deepen your understanding once you hear about it in reddit and try it out for a few times?

The “rep scheme is a secret” approach is fine... but it’s also important to remember that we, the clients, forum goers who create content for free, and who recommend these products to our friends are ultimately the best form of advertising that a brand can have.

When S1 basically declares that the book offers little beyond the rep scheme, and therefore they must keep it a secret, causes a loss of faith and a reduction in community involvement.
 

Dasho

Triple-Digit Post Count
I get the gist of what you are saying, but I guess I tend to see it as a slippery slope.
First, sets and reps are divulged. Then the questions come...
"Wait, well how do I warm up for this?"
"Can I do this on (insert schedule here)?"
"How do I know I can move up a (kettlebell size/pushup variation/etc)?"
And thus, eventually more and more content dribbles out until someone can more or less put together a complete picture.
 

Guy Adini

Triple-Digit Post Count
The devil is always in the details. S&S is not just 10X10 L/R swings and 5X2 L/R getups. That's the basic idea but to implement the program you need a lot more information. The book has this information.
Sshhh, don’t give it away!
Just kidding, of course. This is exactly what I mean.
I would feel a stronger connection with an organization that would give away its experimental protocols, and trust that people are willing to pay in order to learn more and develop.
 

SuperGirevik

More than 300 posts
"the Quick and the Dead" is about..... STOP!!! YOU HAVE TO BUY THE BOOK!:confused:
It's no secret that the program seems to revolve mainly around the OA swing and push-up. In fact this recent Strong First article talks quite a bit about the program.

With that said, I don't see any harm in speculating about the book or hyping it up. But just like we wouldn't reveal any spoilers about a new movie, we should be careful not to reveal too much about the book (if we've already read it).
 
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