Kettlebell Red Zone and S&S

[pet']

Hello,

Recently, I have played a lot with Red Zone, with the 24kg bell. I surprised myself with 2 things:
- The 24kg went from a solid 5RM to a solid 10RM
- I passed Timeless with the 36kg, which is some sort of PR.

However, when I first tried to do Red Zone, there was not "that much" transfer from 32kg TGU to "high rep" 24kg press. The other way around is different. It easily maintains 32kg TGU and even made it stronger.

This was the first thing I wanted to share. Do not misunderstand me, S&S remains a wonderful programme !

Regularly, I see that S&S drastically helps to increase the press. Is there a "threshold" (basically beyond Simple or even 36kg) to see that happening ? What I am trying to say is that it seems (at least for my body) that up to Simple, a press programme seems to deliver more strength.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Dayz]

I'm the same - the press increases my TGU without doing any TGUs, but doing only TGUs reduces my press very quickly.

 

[pet']

Hello,

Yes, that's the point. I wonder if one has to "break a TGU plateau" to make this move increase the press. It seems Simple is not "enough"

However, beyond Simple, the daily practice seems to be "too much" assuming one has other physical activities.

It is always possible to get a very heavy TGU, but I do not want to be strong only with this move, with a very "poor" transfer to other moves. Currently, 24kg is more effective and efficient: I spend very little time training it, and it improves my TGU and my daily life abilities. Nonetheless, I wonder how much time I'd have to spend in the TGU to increase its weight and then to see transfer to daily life abilities

The press seems to be more "general" and the TGU more "specific" to a certain extent.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Dayz]

The press seems to be more "general" and the TGU more "specific" to a certain extent.

Yes that's a good point - I've found the same as well. Which is odd because the TGU is often called the movement Swiss army knife. Does it all, lots of carryover.

I had this thought going over in my head:

"The TGU strengthens so many other angles/ ranges of motion, so maybe that's an argument in favour of it vs the press"

Then I countered myself with "but if increasing the press allows you to perform even heavier TGUs, then surely the press has to strengthen the required angles/ ranges of motion as well"

But then I thought: maybe that's a short term effect. Maybe if you only pressed long enough, you'd lose the movement gains/ fluidity from the TGU, and without those, the heavier press wouldn't translate to heavier TGU anymore.

I honestly have no answer. I guess maybe a long term study is needed!

 

[pet']

Hello @Dayz

Yes, I thought the same. Indeed, we can read in the"Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister Transfer, or the WTH Effect" section of @Pavel Macek 's article, when he was practicing the 40kg: Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst
"Half-bodyweight+ military press (one of the requirements for passing the SFG II), 36kg (my previous 1RM)—Easy"

By the way, there is also this thread: Kettlebell - Pavel Macek: "Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister"

Then you are probably right thinking that either you have to TGU fairly heavy (40) and / or for quite long time to get a transfer to such a press.
@Pavel Macek : if you remember, what transfer did you notice when you were "only" at Simple level, for instance ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

Good observations.

I would say that the TGU is good for building "strong movement", not necessarily building strength. Yes, you will get stronger by doing TGUs.... and strong movement - the ability to move well under load - is HIGHLY valuable. But it's not a direct strength-builder like the press.

Sometimes a diversion from S&S to directly build strength will help move to the next level. Pavel describes this in options 2 and 3 on page 115 of S&S 2.0.

 

[Bronius]

I have not tried it with higher reps, but after hitting simple I kept training with the 32 kg since I didn't have bigger bell, but instead of doing regular getups, I did reverse getups with c&p. I have progressed pretty smoothly from doing only one set per arm reverse getup to full 5 sets per arm using the same S&S 2.0 step loading pattern in five weeks (just adding only one set of reverse getup a week). It was a good way to still stay on S&S format, but bring a bit of variety and also progress in one arm press.

 

[pet']

Hello @Anna C

What you state is right. From your experience, why some folks will get more "direct transfer" from TGU to something than other people ?

From a more general standpoint, I am not a very strong person. Naturally, I am more cardio-vascular endurance and strength-endurance oriented. I am also pretty mobile and flexible. Then, it seems I benefit more from the press than reaching Simple.

This is "strange" because on the forum, a lot of people state that TGU drastically help them in terms of strength. For me, sadly, it just a move I can do "day in day out" without additional benefit, at least up to Simple

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Anna C]

From your experience, why some folks will get more "direct transfer" from TGU to something than other people ?

Yes... I think of TGU like a rising tide; as in, "A rising tide lifts all boats." It will get so many aspects of strength to a decent level, and even a respectably strong level if you can do Simple or higher level get-ups. But to go higher / get stronger, most people need to work on strength more directly. This then leads back to beastly get-ups, if one maintains the ability to do all the parts of the get-up with a decent weight. (If one stops doing get-ups altogether and gets much stronger in other movements, they might not be able to go back and do beastly get-ups due to a few weak links. That describes me, currently. I need more get-ups back in my program!)

 

[Dayz]

Great discussion. Some ideas for best of both worlds:

ROP with TGUs on variety days.

S&S + Soju and Tuba

PTTT with light TGUs as the warm up

 

[pet']

Hello,

That's something interesting.

During the first lockdown, I've done S&S (Simple) and Red Zone (24kg for press and 32kg for swings). RZ is quite similar to RoP as far as pressing volume is concerned. It worked well. However, from a recovery standpoint, it was only possible because back then, I had no other physical activies.

This is why S&T + S&S sounds like a great idea to me.

The beauty of RZ is that it can be considered as a sustainable RoP. It will not lead to a peak and you can really do it as long as you want, by progressively increasing the weight. It is some sort of GPP programme, like S&S. Plus, recovery and fatigue are evenly distributed compared to RoP which uses a L/M/H approach.

What @Anna C says makes sense. For a while, I played by doing 15 x 1 GU @32. It built a significant "strength reserve" and really increase endurance. Sessions were longer, I did this during the weekends. It also allowed me to dial technique. However, it did not help me that much to do TGU @36.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Matt_lux]

Hello @Anna C

What you state is right. From your experience, why some folks will get more "direct transfer" from TGU to something than other people ?

From a more general standpoint, I am not a very strong person. Naturally, I am more cardio-vascular endurance and strength-endurance oriented. I am also pretty mobile and flexible. Then, it seems I benefit more from the press than reaching Simple.

This is "strange" because on the forum, a lot of people state that TGU drastically help them in terms of strength. For me, sadly, it just a move I can do "day in day out" without additional benefit, at least up to Simple

Kind regards,

Pet'

You're not alone !
When I hit timeless simple, I was not even able to press the 24kg. I was very disappointed, but I missed the point of the TGU: it's not a shoulder strength builder. For the rest, I felt pretty solid.
But still, I must agree with you: I saw a lot of people increasing their press with TGU (there are some testimonies in the book).

In this article by Travis Jewett, he states that the "missing part" in S&S would be a full extension of the shoulder.

 

[Nacho]

Looking back, progressing from 16kg to 36kg get ups with 4kg jumps sure made me stronger but most of all made me move better. You can’t cheat your way up on a heavy get up. You have to move better and better as you progress to heavier weights. Now that I have spent few years with simple (+) weight get ups, I’m starting to think maybe I should focus on other strength exercises but still do a bit lighter get ups, as a movement maintenance practice.

 

[sizzlefuzz]

Hello,

Yes, that's the point. I wonder if one has to "break a TGU plateau" to make this move increase the press. It seems Simple is not "enough"

However, beyond Simple, the daily practice seems to be "too much" assuming one has other physical activities.

It is always possible to get a very heavy TGU, but I do not want to be strong only with this move, with a very "poor" transfer to other moves. Currently, 24kg is more effective and efficient: I spend very little time training it, and it improves my TGU and my daily life abilities. Nonetheless, I wonder how much time I'd have to spend in the TGU to increase its weight and then to see transfer to daily life abilities

The press seems to be more "general" and the TGU more "specific" to a certain extent.

Kind regards,

Pet'

When I was S&Sing, I found that sprinkling in presses, front squats, pull ups, and windmills helped me a lot to progress. If I were to go back to 10x10 swings for "main" work I think I would just eschew the TGU altogether.

 

[pet']

Hello

@Matt_lux
Same here ! I had to work my way up to 24 even when I was doing Simple. I really felt weak at that point hehe.

I do not have issue with mobility or whatever. Indeed, I "created" my routine some years ago, by picking up a few moves that collectively work the entire body. I do it daily so I guess it helps.

Like you @Nacho I only did 4kg increments. I just do not feel comfortable using 8kg jumps.

I tend to agree @sizzlefuzz For overall purposes if I were to do it all again, I would do something in the line of D. John's Easy strength, even if it would be more of a cycle: 2 x 5 of pull, squat and push, then something like 75-100 swings for hinging.

Writting this, I do not ditch S&S. I think I have just not "pushed it" heavy enough (36+) to see improvement in other areas of strength

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[masa]

I liked this variation too, where you're doing push presses 10x10 alternating with the get ups.

S&C Training for MMA With Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Here is a summary of our basic S&C Training for MMA with UFC fighter Viktor Pešta - including his strength and conditioning training, how he ate, and more.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[pet']

Hello,

I liked this variation too, where you're doing push presses 10x10 alternating with the get ups.

S&C Training for MMA With Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst

Here is a summary of our basic S&C Training for MMA with UFC fighter Viktor Pešta - including his strength and conditioning training, how he ate, and more.

www.strongfirst.com

Yes it may be one of the most well rounded approach to get the best of both worlds, without necessarily going heavier than 32 for the GU !

How did you feel it ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[masa]

Hello,


Yes it may be one of the most well rounded approach to get the best of both worlds, without necessarily going heavier than 32 for the GU !

You nailed it. Great explanation.

How did you feel it ?

I haven't done this version. I like this in theory and going to try this next time, when I try S&S. At the moment doing swings and strict presses only.

Kind regards,

Pet'

Cheers,

Masa

 

[jozko]

When I did S&S only, my press decreased significantly. This does not mean heavy TGU does not provide carryover to other disciplines - after spending 2 months on 40kg (half my bodyweight), I was able to perform straddle planche with slightly bent arms for the first time in my life. I don't think I will ever encounter bigger WTH effect than this. Sadly, even when TGU-ing 40kg, my press went from 32kg 2RM to 32kg 0RM


My explanation is that TGU and straddle planche requires powerful isometric contraction of shoulder girdle. The transfer from TGU to full ROM press is not so direct.

 

[Pavel Macek]

Hello @Dayz

Yes, I thought the same. Indeed, we can read in the"Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister Transfer, or the WTH Effect" section of @Pavel Macek 's article, when he was practicing the 40kg: Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst
"Half-bodyweight+ military press (one of the requirements for passing the SFG II), 36kg (my previous 1RM)—Easy"

By the way, there is also this thread: Kettlebell - Pavel Macek: "Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister"

Then you are probably right thinking that either you have to TGU fairly heavy (40) and / or for quite long time to get a transfer to such a press.
@Pavel Macek : if you remember, what transfer did you notice when you were "only" at Simple level, for instance ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

Pet, I d

Hello @Dayz

Yes, I thought the same. Indeed, we can read in the"Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister Transfer, or the WTH Effect" section of @Pavel Macek 's article, when he was practicing the 40kg: Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst
"Half-bodyweight+ military press (one of the requirements for passing the SFG II), 36kg (my previous 1RM)—Easy"

By the way, there is also this thread: Kettlebell - Pavel Macek: "Solid: In-Between Simple & Sinister"

Then you are probably right thinking that either you have to TGU fairly heavy (40) and / or for quite long time to get a transfer to such a press.
@Pavel Macek : if you remember, what transfer did you notice when you were "only" at Simple level, for instance ?

Kind regards,

Pet'

Pet, I got "Simple" pretty fast, not difficult. My main criterium is my combat arts performance- if I am not sore and I am getting stronger, all good. And S&S delivers, in any stage of the practice.