Kettlebell Rucking

[Anna C]

Hi, it’s my first post ever on any forum. Been following many of the conversations and this is one that raises some questions for me. There are some serious weights being carried here and I was just wondering about the adaptation effect you get - aerobic vs muscular endurance? Pace vs weight vs distance.

I don't claim to be an expert on this, but I like your question so I'll offer my thoughts on it. Carrying weight in a backpack is infinitely scale-able so it really covers the whole spectrum. (Just like farmer's carries with kettlebells -- I can carry 8kg in each hand and walk for an hour, or carry 48kg in each hand and walk for 100 feet. Same exercise with very different targets and effects!) I would say the aerobic benefits are maximized when the duration is long, the weight is light, the heart rate is MAF or below (180-age, and +/- adjustments). The strength-building (i.e. fast-twitch muscle fiber) muscular endurance benefits are maximized when the weight is heavy enough that it can only be maintained for short (5-15 minute) intervals, and in these conditions the HR will likely be higher than MAF, indicating it's also a glycolytic activity. The overall endurance (i.e. slow-twitch muscle fiber) muscular endurance benefits are maximized when the weight can be maintained for an hour or longer. Any weight or time will be great for building general load-bearing capability of the body -- the feet, the ankle/knee/hip joints, the trunk muscles, the back and shoulders. Smart progression in working up to weight and distance is important!

When I did my loaded-backpack training last year while preparing for a hiking trip, I found it to be hugely more beneficial (and enjoyable) to walk on uneven terrain rather than on a flat trail or road. There's really something powerful about the brain's connection with and control of the body in this condition - each step is different and challenges movement and balance, the load increases the challenge, and you are continuously navigating forward with purpose. Makes me want to get back out there and hike!

 

[1mooreclimb]

Hi Anna, thanks for you reply, I am chuffed to bits that my question was liked and so well answered. Getting outside and enjoying the efforts of our training is what it’s all about. And going fast over technical ground is so much fun as you say.
Specifity aside for now, same exercise with different targets and effects is very interesting. I have to admit I made a serious mistake in my training and had a pretty bad day last March in the Alps. So can really relate to your point of getting off tracks and into uneven ground.

Fast and light for long easy (can be fast or slow and as you say at the aerobic threshold)is one facet but strength underpins. So carrying 8kg for an hour or more and 100 feet at 48kg are at opposite ends of the spectrum. If you don’t mind what were the outcomes?

At the back of my mind - toying with the idea of a 30 minute training session with moderate weight uphill - targeting fast twitch but staying alactic. Moving into glycolytic later in the cycle by cutting rest times. Kind of applying kettlebell principles to fastpacking uphill - maybe just wouldn’t need heavy pack.

Of course - separately keeping up aerobic base volume. And the body just gets so much out of going off track - next hike Sunday.

Hope people find this useful.

Steve - thanks for the the welcome.

My name is Robert and happy for my name to be used if you like.

 

[Anna C]

Fast and light for long easy (can be fast or slow and as you say at the aerobic threshold)is one facet but strength underpins. So carrying 8kg for an hour or more and 100 feet at 48kg are at opposite ends of the spectrum. If you don’t mind what were the outcomes?

Yes, exactly, aerobic base and strength underpin the middle ground: muscular endurance.

By the same token, the energy system support: aerobic energy for endurance, alactic (PCr) energy for strength underpin the middle ground: glycolytic capacity.

Going right for the middle ground is likely to bring brief and stunted results.

Taking time to build the aerobic base and the strength base and THEN undertaking muscular endurance training is the smarter way to go.

The book "Training for the New Alpinism" by Steve House and Scott Johnston explains this better than anywhere else I've seen, particularly when it comes to carrying weight uphill in challenging terrain.

At the back of my mind - toying with the idea of a 30 minute training session with moderate weight uphill - targeting fast twitch but staying alactic. Moving into glycolytic later in the cycle by cutting rest times. Kind of applying kettlebell principles to fastpacking uphill - maybe just wouldn’t need heavy pack.

So if you have a decent aerobic base and strength base, this sounds like a fine idea to me. So during the 30 minutes, how would you stay alactic? Do a short hard effort, then rest, and repeat? Or just keeping your effort steady and below lactate threshold (below the burn)?

Agree, some glycolytic peaking for just a week or two before a big event can be really useful.

 

[1mooreclimb]

Hi Anna, so I think the protocol would go something like - max is 10 second effort, rest around a minute to perhaps one and half minutes and repeat for total of 6 hard attempts. Rest 5 minutes then do another set of 6. I would build up over time for up to 4 sets.

I would put a constant in - so same hill, must be steep such that you can hike up fast but it’s not easy, add between 5-10kg but if you get a burn drop the weight as I think it’s key to be able to get your speed up to as fast as you can.

I would like to believe the adaptations would be increasing strength reserve and improving aerobic ability. I would do it probably once per week but one could do it twice a week - if one gets time crunched by life! I wouldn’t do it too often because you could end up overtraining.

Training for The New Alpinism is a fab book - read it to destruction and yes it’s a source of some of my knowledge. I have been trying to define what was happening in my Bouldering sessions and I believe it’s very similar to this protocol I am seeking advice on.

Hopefully it could prove out to be a useful training session and perhaps remove the need for Max Strength and the recovery time that entails.

And talking of books, I just got the Simple & Sinister in my letter box two weeks ago. And I can recover in under 24 hours , which I am already seeing some interesting outcomes (WTH) , but I don’t want to get off thread.

 

[Anna C]

Hi Anna, so I think the protocol would go something like - max is 10 second effort, rest around a minute to perhaps one and half minutes and repeat for total of 6 hard attempts. Rest 5 minutes then do another set of 6. I would build up over time for up to 4 sets.

Sounds a lot like a HIIT session I do sometimes on the Airdyne. After a few minutes of warm-up, 20 sec all-out effort followed by 1 min 40 seconds easy-pedal recovery, and repeat that 4 more times.

I think it’s key to be able to get your speed up to as fast as you can.

So, an acceleration component to it, much like sprinting.

I would like to believe the adaptations would be increasing strength reserve and improving aerobic ability.

Yes, perhaps... I'd be inclined to think it would improve power (moving the weight quickly; accelerating uphill) which is one component of strength. And strength endurance as you work up to a longer session. And probably the aerobic benefits of HIIT.

I wouldn’t do it too often because you could end up overtraining.

Yes... maybe once every week or two, and then slightly more often if leading up to an event.

I have been trying to define what was happening in my Bouldering sessions

I've only done this a handful of times... quite challenging. Someone posted this video recently about Adam Ondra and one thing I noticed is that he extensively uses what Pavel calls "Fast and Loose" to recover the muscles during the effort. We should take note!

Hopefully it could prove out to be a useful training session and perhaps remove the need for Max Strength and the recovery time that entails.

This I would doubt, but it will help preserve it to some degree. I'd keep some component of pure strength training.

And talking of books, I just got the Simple & Sinister in my letter box two weeks ago. And I can recover in under 24 hours , which I am already seeing some interesting outcomes (WTH) , but I don’t want to get off thread.

Awesome! Let us know how it goes.

 

[1mooreclimb]

Wow Anna your opening statement really took me by surprise when I read your message Monday morning and saw HIIT...which I always associated with, predominantly the anaerobic system. Honestly I was so focused on applying A&A specifically that I never considered HIIT... really keeping to the 10 second alactic energy system protocol.

Power - that’s it..and very interesting to develop strength endurance and gain aerobic benefit by duration and not increasing weight.

So I am going to plan 6 sessions, 1 per week in January and a further 4 leading up to my winter climbing in Mont Blanc Massiv (somewhere)...and this should give a real power and endurance boost.
And just circling back to the earlier thread and different weights carried - my alternative could be a heavy pack, giving a slow burn in the legs, very much longer duration, but it would be a slow pace and still at conversational breathing level - which is deceptive because actually you are working above anaerobic threshold and not impacting aerobic system.

I will supplement with S&S for strength, which will be interesting- different exercise and not Max Strength protocol.

S&S I have done perhaps 15 sessions and last Saturday I achieved my first 100T swings @24kg and 10 TGU @20kg but- I gave myself an hour to do it. Interesting was my stats from HR monitor really jumped as compared to 70T swings and lower weights in TGU in all previous sessions.

And finally Adam Ondra ascent of Silence was incredible. And yes take note as A&A is a term also now beginning to emerge in the climbing world, amongst others.

And after just a few S&S sessions I can sense a subtle improvement in my movement patterns on the wall - and I can do both climbing and strength in the same day. Marvelous!!

Anna thank you so much for the support.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Another thing to keep in mind (and me no expert on rucking!), one of the adaptations is in the connective tissues.

Just as your forearms are liable to ache a bit from hitting the heavy bag if you aren't used to it, so your hips , knees, and even ribcage will feel a little funny hiking the heavy loads.

I've noticed on multi day hikes I'll actually feel better on day two and three than on day one. I have never done really extended hikes with a lot of load, I imagine this effect is a substantial contributor to being comfortable under load.

 

[Anna C]

Wow Anna your opening statement really took me by surprise when I read your message Monday morning and saw HIIT...which I always associated with, predominantly the anaerobic system. Honestly I was so focused on applying A&A specifically that I never considered HIIT... really keeping to the 10 second alactic energy system protocol.

We like to think of things in neat categories, but the body just does it's energy-supplying processes in it's multiple magical ways while oblivious to our theories and explanations.... nonetheless I think it's a fascinating topic so we'll continue down this path! Hopefully if any corrections are needed someone who knows better will jump in with them. So, 10 seconds... yes. If you listen to the latest Podcast with Al Ciampa he discusses this. I did an in-person workshop with him last year and he had me demo finding the duration of the alactic effort using maximum-explosive maximum-speed snatches with my snatch-test sized kettlebell (16kg). There was a VERY CLEAR point where the snatches slowed down, right around 10 or 12 seconds in. So, that was my indicator on how long an alactic effort should last. So yes, 20 seconds would go in to a glycolytic effort to a larger degree. There's also the difference of how much of the body is working, and is it an explosive effort. On the Airdyne, most ALL of the big muscles in the body are producing force in an all-out effort, but I wouldn't call it an explosive effort. A heavy snatch is explosive. A sprint is explosive. Your 10 sec acellerations uphill with heavy weight sound like they will be explosive. So with those characteristics in mind - explosive and under 10 seconds - yes that could be a lot more of an A+A, alactic effort and aerobic full recovery, as opposed to HIIT, which is alactic+glycolytic and only partial recovery (HR stays pretty high between intervals, even with 1 min 40 seconds of easy pedaling). So what I'm saying is, maybe you're right, it's not a good comparison. But then again, is it a clear cut line? What if you do 14, 16, 18 seconds instead of 10? What if you don't move explosively and it's more like an Airdyne effort? You see where I'm going with that... it's hard to clearly categorize, and it's not like the body flips switches from one energy system to another. We can only target our desired adaptations with our training protocols, not directly control them.

my alternative could be a heavy pack, giving a slow burn in the legs, very much longer duration, but it would be a slow pace and still at conversational breathing level - which is deceptive because actually you are working above anaerobic threshold and not impacting aerobic system.

"long duration", "slow pace" "conversational breathing level" all sounds aerobic to me...

And finally Adam Ondra ascent of Silence was incredible. And yes take note as A&A is a term also now beginning to emerge in the climbing world, amongst others.

And after just a few S&S sessions I can sense a subtle improvement in my movement patterns on the wall - and I can do both climbing and strength in the same day. Marvelous!!

I always love to hear about climbing because my 23-yr-old son does a lot of it. He's spent the last 2 summers in Yosemite National Park... doesn't get much better than that for climbing locations! He took me on a few easy climbs and a little bouldering when I visited him out there last fall.

Anna thank you so much for the support.

You're welcome! Good converstation. Hopefully we're not too far off the thread's original topic.

 

[1mooreclimb]

Ah Clear cut lines - yes totally fascinating-precisely how many seconds and by how much do you move along the energy continuum. It’s taken me a really long time to finally accept my own conclusion on Bouldering because of its infinite variability (I still maybe wrong) - and due to what your saying there Anna - you just can’t flip switches on and off for each energy system. Over a period of time I have adapted to Boulder for 3+ hours before powering out, so a real capacity improvement- I think I run on A&A plus sipping from my glycogen stores. And it’s specific to climbing movement/muscles. So it’s muscle specific, and I always muddle up the fast twitch types so I leave it at targeting ATP/Mitochondria optimally. Which brings me back to Rucking.

The heart rate I think could be misleading. Just going back to the heavy pack and it’s really a funny thing but even though you are hiking and can talk, you should be constrained by the legs and training muscular endurance. By going uphill 10 seconds - constraint is not the legs unless it’s 100kg. Kind of extreme I know and I can’t do that!

I think the weight is key? If you get a burn that slows you down the for sure you have just gone anaerobic. So reduce the weight. 15kg would be too heavy. 5kg might be too light. (For me).

Perhaps looking at recovery would indicate the level of anaerobic involvement.?

And North Coast Miller added a key point actually. I built up slow - without weights totally focused on pure aerobic base only. I had no issues adding weight later on. Tendons (and aerobic base take time). Especially practice walking downhill without weights - eccentric contractions can be tough on joints and legs.

I am so jealous - Yosemite!! Just would love to climb there. It’s a real Mecca of climbing. Many famous climbers over the years. But I don’t fancy the free soloing, if I fell my wife would kill me, the second time!

 

[1mooreclimb]

And I forgot - I will listen to the podcast thanks for that pointer

 

[offwidth]

Ah Clear cut lines - yes totally fascinating-precisely how many seconds and by how much do you move along the energy continuum. It’s taken me a really long time to finally accept my own conclusion on Bouldering because of its infinite variability (I still maybe wrong) - and due to what your saying there Anna - you just can’t flip switches on and off for each energy system. Over a period of time I have adapted to Boulder for 3+ hours before powering out, so a real capacity improvement- I think I run on A&A plus sipping from my glycogen stores. And it’s specific to climbing movement/muscles. So it’s muscle specific, and I always muddle up the fast twitch types so I leave it at targeting ATP/Mitochondria optimally. Which brings me back to Rucking.

The heart rate I think could be misleading. Just going back to the heavy pack and it’s really a funny thing but even though you are hiking and can talk, you should be constrained by the legs and training muscular endurance. By going uphill 10 seconds - constraint is not the legs unless it’s 100kg. Kind of extreme I know and I can’t do that!

I think the weight is key? If you get a burn that slows you down the for sure you have just gone anaerobic. So reduce the weight. 15kg would be too heavy. 5kg might be too light. (For me).

Perhaps looking at recovery would indicate the level of anaerobic involvement.?

And North Coast Miller added a key point actually. I built up slow - without weights totally focused on pure aerobic base only. I had no issues adding weight later on. Tendons (and aerobic base take time). Especially practice walking downhill without weights - eccentric contractions can be tough on joints and legs.

I am so jealous - Yosemite!! Just would love to climb there. It’s a real Mecca of climbing. Many famous climbers over the years. But I don’t fancy the free soloing, if I fell my wife would kill me, the second time!

Yeah... the valley is pretty special. I am fortunate that I got to climb there before it got so developed, overcrowded, and smothered in rules.

With respect to rucking for climbing training (alpine). I'm of the belief that you should train with the weight you plan to climb with. Not more. (At least not appreciably more...)

 

[Anna C]

Ah Clear cut lines - yes totally fascinating-precisely how many seconds and by how much do you move along the energy continuum. It’s taken me a really long time to finally accept my own conclusion on Bouldering because of its infinite variability (I still maybe wrong) - and due to what your saying there Anna - you just can’t flip switches on and off for each energy system. Over a period of time I have adapted to Boulder for 3+ hours before powering out, so a real capacity improvement- I think I run on A&A plus sipping from my glycogen stores. And it’s specific to climbing movement/muscles. So it’s muscle specific, and I always muddle up the fast twitch types so I leave it at targeting ATP/Mitochondria optimally. Which brings me back to Rucking.

Yes, energy systems and bouldering, now that's a great puzzle to muse on. Especially throwing in slow-twitch fiber vs. fast twitch! But the bottom line is, the body figures out how to fuel, and adapts to stress to build capacity and ability. Sounds like you've done that well.

The heart rate I think could be misleading. Just going back to the heavy pack and it’s really a funny thing but even though you are hiking and can talk, you should be constrained by the legs and training muscular endurance. By going uphill 10 seconds - constraint is not the legs unless it’s 100kg. Kind of extreme I know and I can’t do that!

I think the weight is key? If you get a burn that slows you down the for sure you have just gone anaerobic. So reduce the weight. 15kg would be too heavy. 5kg might be too light. (For me).

Perhaps looking at recovery would indicate the level of anaerobic involvement.?

Yes I think your last point is key. The more you go beyond your aerobic system's capacity for anything more than a short duration, the more stressful the event is and the more recovery resources are required.

So, would you agree:

• Aerobic = Light hiking, light load, HR 130 or below, nose breathing or conversational, can go all day
• Aerobic + glycolytic (some lactate production) = Heavier load, HR 140s or 150s, needing to breathe through the mouth, starting to feel a little burn in the legs, sustainable for 30-120 minutes depending on endurance
• Anaerobic (beyond lactate threshold) = VERY heavy load, HR towards max, huffing and puffing, legs burning to the point of forcing you to stop or slow way down, sustainable only for a few minutes

The burn that you begin to feel in that middle range indicates you are producing lactate (and H+, byproducts of anaerobic glycolysis) and as you increase you reach a point that the production of lactate etc. is more than your system can clear, so it's accumulating, forcing a slow-down. Lactate threshold (LT) is fairly trainable... in other words, by tolerating this high-ish output for several-minute intervals you can push it up so that you can reach your LT at a higher HR (and higher workload) because your body becomes better adapted to using and clearing lactate... but that won't be the way to the best overall gains if what you're really lacking is aerobic capacity. LT training is best done after building an aerobic base, and usually repeating this annually for long-term development. So the LT training is in that middle zone where you feel the burn, but you can tolerate it and keep going, for 30-120 minutes depending on endurance. It's just under the threshold where lactate is rapidly accumulating. If you keep going harder and exceed that and "go anaerobic", are forced to way slow down after a short period of time. That becomes a very stressful event and not something you want to do very often.

So where does a 10-sec alactic effort fit into the above? I think it's an effort that is as hard as what I describe with Anaerobic (and in fact, PCr energy is anerobic), but short enough in duration that the ATP can be supplied by the PCr already in the muscles. Then before glycolysis kicks in heavy, you rest and recover, using the aerobic system to replenish PCr. Voila, A+A. But how well that beautiful theory plays out in the actual execution of your body doing that specific protocol is anyone's guess.

 

[offwidth]

Yes, energy systems and bouldering, now that's a great puzzle to muse on. Especially throwing in slow-twitch fiber vs. fast twitch!

Yes, and it would totally depend upon the boulder problem(s) in question. A wildly overhanging thug-fest, or something with dynos is one thing, but a delicate slab problem is another. The latter really requiring virtually no energy system usage at all; balance and precise footwork being key, rather than muscular strength of any type...

 

[1mooreclimb]

Ah I really love this conversation- the beautiful theory and how it plays out. So I am going to suggest that I try the protocol as I stated and my testing ground is the Alps in March. I can see threads are kept for some time so if anyone is interested then I will follow up so set an alert. No idea if what I just said is ok and will work as I haven’t even worked out how to quote yet..

As to agreeing yes I do to point 1 - aerobic and is so key to be developed first.

To point 2 you have elaborated on very nicely produced H+ and you risk over training and destroyed mitochondria gains. It will improve you but only at the aerobic level you are at, then plateau and lose those gains as quick as you won them!

Point 3 really heavy (relatively) and critical to have the aerobic base so you can go longer.

So for Rucking point 1 first, then add point 3 but keep the volume up from the aerobic base.

You mentioned you like Stories so here is a quick version from March this year. I was on a glacier at 3,800 meters and this year loads of snow. I knew I had some weakness in terms of muscular endurance and strength reserve from my leg wobbles the previous September in Switzerland, I had done some work but wasn’t convinced I was ready. I was roped up with a world class/ awarded climber - that was challenging!! He was guiding the group.

So what happened - I Bonked. Basically i almost exhausted my glycogen stores on the hike in. I was box stepping thigh deep snow with crampons across a glacier for an hour and half. Stopped at the base of the ridge and took on board some food. Nice French baguette. 4 hours of mixed ice and rock climbing. Ran out of time to the summit because I was too slow on the hike in but also other climbers were much much slower than me (ha!) we bailed the route and I can say 3 grown men on one ice screw at a hanging belay - that works!!! Scary I lowered off into snow up to my shoulder!

I had recovered during the climb but not enough. I totally shut down on the hike out. My pack was 10kg. My climbing partner pulled me off the glacier! I had stopped moving on the glacier - yes crevasse everywhere!!! Totally destroyed and my pride took a real beating.
Next day went ice climbing and had fully recovered to do some nice routes.

Back to rucking - I had carried 10kg for 10 mile hikes in 3 hours - and often. Which is the weight on target objective. Answering Offwidth now ( great picture with the axes and kettlebell btw).

But... it was my aerobic base as you point out Anna, that was lacking, have to build that first and build it good - without weight to be truly aerobic. Here is the thing that caught me out- anaerobic energy requires oxygen to produce energy. That’s a scarce resource at altitude.

And doing anything stressful too often as you say Anna and I really agree with this is not good - infrequent and close to the event.

I am really psyched to try out the protocol . Let’s see how that goes.

 

[1mooreclimb]

Just reading again and PCr is that Creatin Phosphate- I think so, and yes i believe it gets topped up rapidly so agreed. But new to me is that it’s anaerobicly used - never considered that - interesting though

 

[offwidth]

But... it was my aerobic base as you point out Anna, that was lacking, have to build that first and build it good - without weight to be truly aerobic. Here is the thing that caught me out- anaerobic energy requires oxygen to produce energy. That’s a scarce resource at altitude.

As you are aware, building a robust aerobic base takes time and patience. I think that even the protocols in TFTNA might be almost too aggressive to build that deep base that we are talking about here. Especially for people that are starting from scratch, or in a highly decondioned state. (I have run those protocols multiple times...)

And yes altitude changes everything....
One might think they are fit at sea level... at 6,000m... things get real...

 

[1mooreclimb]

Patience - hi Offwidth yes In abundance. TFTNA do quote certain numbers of hours needed without weight to improve base, you do it and see no change forever and then bang sudden improvement.

 

[1mooreclimb]

Yeah and totally agree with you - those starting from scratch or in a de conditioned state should expect a substantial effort to build a truly deep base. We’re you over 6,000 meters?

 

[offwidth]

Yeah and totally agree with you - those starting from scratch or in a de conditioned state should expect a substantial effort to build a truly deep base. We’re you over 6,000 meters?

Several times in S/A

 

[Matts]

doesn't bother me too much when people risk their own lives in environments where they have no business being, but it does bother me that they almost always put other lives at risk who have to get them out or rescue them. Rucking's a great exercise/outdoor activity, but mountains are best left to mountaineers. Whole different ballgame up high in snow, ice, and rock.