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Kettlebell S&S and striking

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Anth

Level 4 Valued Member
Hello,

I have a question about how to integrate S&S into my Muay Thai schedule, but first a bit of background:

I'm a longtime martial artist, mostly striking, a little grappling, and a current Muay Thai instructor. I do two classes a week (one is sparring) and do a lot of drills at home, including bagwork. I also like to do high rep, very short sprints (5-10 seconds x 10 or 20 for explosive power) on my airdyne. Currently I work light drills in during active rests for swings.

I have always felt that I have a strength gap and never really followed a good strength program. I was looking for something simple and consistent, and a stumbled on S&S, which has been perfect.

My question is, how to strikers implement this program? I read a few threads about "finishers" being detrimental to S&S progress, but what about doing bagwork after, or hitting pads? Do people to S&S in the morning then training later in the day? Right after? Never on the same days?

I guess I'm looking to hear about other people's methods. How do you maintain your gas tank for sparring rounds or fights? How do you work in sprints? etc. etc.

I'm pretty new here, so thanks in advance!
 
@pavelmacek has a great article on s&s and training an mma fighter. Great start and should keep you busy for a while

Search the articles on this site
 
There are other folks who have a lot more experience in this space than I, but my couple of ideas:

Swings should be an explosive movement, just like your airdyne sprints. You want to keep the explosive work explosive - go until you are losing power, then stop. So with that in mind, unless you think you have recovery to spare right now, I'd say don't add explosive work to your routine - substitute. Replace some sprints with some swings here or there, rather than just adding swing on top. I do think that swinging a bell will help you develop power that you'll eventually translate into striking.

How are you treating the bag work? If you're using it to develop power, then in my mind, that too falls into explosive training, and should be considered part of the pool that you're drawing from if you add in swings. If you're using it for more light technique and footwork, I don't see anything wrong with doing that as a "finisher" after some strength work.

It sounds like you aren't doing any sort of grind work, so I'd say add in the TGUs slowly but frequently to give yourself time to adapt, and make sure it's not taking too much out of you. I've enjoyed doing some TGUs after running sprints or some power work on the heavy bag.

Most importantly, I'd say remember that martial arts is your sport, not S&S. Don't worry about how fast you think you "should" be progressing in S&S, just make sure that what you're doing is adding to your sport, not taking away from it. If S&S is making your martial arts practice suffer, then even if you're doing it by the book, it's not what you need.
 
@WhatWouldHulkDo

Thanks. That's good advice. I appreciate it.

Right now I'm at 20kg for the swings and I'm working 25kg into my TGU set (I have some experience with the TGU but I never practiced the swing much).

I'm trying to find a balance right now. I feel very strong after an S&S session, like I could do a few more rounds of power on the bag or sprints on the bike without getting smoked.

The main benefit I'm seeing right now is core strength, which translates into great power, so that's good. I'm just trying to make sure that my workouts help facilitate strong legs in late rounds.
 
Check out Warrior Cardio by Martin Rooney. Probably a little overdone and complicated. but he does have some kettlebell bell drills. If nothing else you can see how he programs his stuff around the fighting practice.
 
So, I spent years being a Muay Thai coach, and had a significant amount of time overlapped with using kettlebells or other strength training.

Honestly, if I had a choice, based on what you've described, I'd use something like Power to the People over S&S. You're getting plenty of explosive work and endurance training in. Building up a solid base of grinding strength will fill in a lot more gaps.

As Dan John often reminds us, "the goal is to keep the goal the goal." If your goal is to be practicing Muay Thai, then S&S (or whatever program you choose) should take a back seat to your training. In other words, if you have a choice between progressing in Muay Thai, or progressing with S&S...progress with Muay Thai. In the ring, no one cares how much you can deadlift, or what your snatch test time is. (I'm not saying those things can't help, but I've known plenty of guys who were weaker than me and could kick my a#@ six ways to Sunday. Prioritize).

How you organize training is kind of up to you. Separating out sessions is nice if you can manage it. If not, I'd place the strength work AFTER the Muay Thai...the skill work. Skill work always comes first.

Ditch any idea about how you "should" progress in S&S, because it doesn't matter. S&S is the side dish. Muay Thai is the main course.

Mike Perry (skillofstrength.com) does a lot of great work with muay thai and MMA fighters, and is worth checking out. Ross Enamait (rosstraining) has some great material as well--it's not kettlebell specific, but he has good insights about blending strength work with combat sport.

Just some thoughts.
 
Anth said:
Hello,

I have a question about how to integrate S&S into my Muay Thai schedule, but first a bit of background:

I'm a longtime martial artist, mostly striking, a little grappling, and a current Muay Thai instructor. I do two classes a week (one is sparring) and do a lot of drills at home, including bagwork. I also like to do high rep, very short sprints (5-10 seconds x 10 or 20 for explosive power) on my airdyne. Currently I work light drills in during active rests for swings.

I have always felt that I have a strength gap and never really followed a good strength program. I was looking for something simple and consistent, and a stumbled on S&S, which has been perfect.

My question is, how to strikers implement this program? I read a few threads about "finishers" being detrimental to S&S progress, but what about doing bagwork after, or hitting pads? Do people to S&S in the morning then training later in the day? Right after? Never on the same days?

I guess I'm looking to hear about other people's methods. How do you maintain your gas tank for sparring rounds or fights? How do you work in sprints? etc. etc.

I'm pretty new here, so thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

Please check out S&C Training for MMA With Simple & Sinister | StrongFirst
 
Anth said:
Hello,

I have a question about how to integrate S&S into my Muay Thai schedule, but first a bit of background:

I'm a longtime martial artist, mostly striking, a little grappling, and a current Muay Thai instructor. I do two classes a week (one is sparring) and do a lot of drills at home, including bagwork. I also like to do high rep, very short sprints (5-10 seconds x 10 or 20 for explosive power) on my airdyne. Currently I work light drills in during active rests for swings.

I have always felt that I have a strength gap and never really followed a good strength program. I was looking for something simple and consistent, and a stumbled on S&S, which has been perfect.

My question is, how to strikers implement this program? I read a few threads about "finishers" being detrimental to S&S progress, but what about doing bagwork after, or hitting pads? Do people to S&S in the morning then training later in the day? Right after? Never on the same days?

I guess I'm looking to hear about other people's methods. How do you maintain your gas tank for sparring rounds or fights? How do you work in sprints? etc. etc.

I'm pretty new here, so thanks in advance!
Click to expand...

I just do Muay Thai just for fitness, but this is what I found from experience and reading.

Do the getups with the warmups before Muay Thai. The halo and bridging in particular. Make sure to do the prying with the goblet squat. Great to open up the hips. I would do swings and loaded carries after the skill work in MT. I found a decrease in quality from shoulder soreness and fatigue from doing S&S after boxing.

I also highly recommend face pulls and band work for the shoulders especially internal rotation. As the book flexible steel says, you don't want to live in your fighting posture. There are many tutorials. Any one like this

In addition, I would add rows for lats and to balance posture. A few striking sites mention this. It is one of the few lifts where dumbells are better than kettlebells.

Finally, I agree that deadlift is a great idea. It can be trained as a pure strength move that does not gain much mass compared to squats.

If I remember correctly in the S&S book, one of the biggest influences on S&S was a boxing coaches recommendations of the two lifts that gave the most return on investment for his boxers. You could alternate between a deadlift and swing focus every couple of months or so as well as an option.
 
Hello,

Phil Daru is an pretty famous physical coach in MMA (Poirier, Arlovski, Alves, etc...). In this serie of video, he show a complete program for MMA (which includes swings and get ups, as S&& does).


Kind regards,

Pet'
 
S&S in the morning is fully compatible with a uncompromised session of striking in the evening, in my experience. I have also done S&S (and other strength and conditioning stuff) immediately before pad work and standup drills, but I guess that doing it right before heavy sparring sessions (aiming for quality) might be less than optimal.
 
Thank you everyone for all the advice. It's very helpful. I think, based on everything I've seen and read, and my hectic lifestyle in general (I forgot to mention two 5-year-olds at home), I'm going to stick with S&S in the morning and be patient with the progress while training MT in the evening. When I feel stronger or maybe achieve the simple goal, I'll look into some more advanced programs.
 
Anth said:
Thank you everyone for all the advice. It's very helpful. I think, based on everything I've seen and read, and my hectic lifestyle in general (I forgot to mention two 5-year-olds at home), I'm going to stick with S&S in the morning and be patient with the progress while training MT in the evening. When I feel stronger or maybe achieve the simple goal, I'll look into some more advanced programs.
Click to expand...

As the parent of a four and seven year old—yeah, that was a BIG thing to leave out.

If S&S is working for you, keep on keeping on. Remember Muay Thai is your priority (after your family), and don’t rush the process. You’ll get there (wherever there is) eventually
 
I did S&S for leading up to a tournament (knockdown karate). As my focus was explosiveness I would always do my 10x10 swings double handed (40kg).

I would suggest doing it in the AM. That way your body will have plenty of time to recover and be ready for what your Muai Thai sessions have to throw at you. You will be amazed at the results you'll get, unfortunately your pad holders will not be to happy!
 
knockdownfighter1 said:
I did S&S for leading up to a tournament (knockdown karate). As my focus was explosiveness I would always do my 10x10 swings double handed (40kg).

I would suggest doing it in the AM. That way your body will have plenty of time to recover and be ready for what your Muai Thai sessions have to throw at you. You will be amazed at the results you'll get, unfortunately your pad holders will not be to happy!
Click to expand...

This is a good observation that two-handed swings are still useful for martial artists in particular, even when they have achieved proficiency. There is some evidence that 30% bodyweight is optimal for power. Science of the Swing

There is a detailed discussion here:

Power Production ?

I also think that loaded one leg deadlifts are underrated for martial arts.
 
knockdownfighter1 said:
I did S&S for leading up to a tournament (knockdown karate). As my focus was explosiveness I would always do my 10x10 swings double handed (40kg).

I would suggest doing it in the AM. That way your body will have plenty of time to recover and be ready for what your Muai Thai sessions have to throw at you. You will be amazed at the results you'll get, unfortunately your pad holders will not be to happy!
Click to expand...

Thanks. One more question: did you do it every day? I think I can get in two mornings during the week plus Saturday and Sunday, but more than that would be difficult.
 
This is the best video on using bands for shoulder health that was recommended on this forum. I especially like the external rotation one. Particularly good for strikers and those with hunched posture whether from boxing or typing. In my case both. Not a good combination.
 
pet' said:
Hello,

From time to time, let's say every other day, it can also be interesting to alternate between snatches and swings. Indeed, it seems they are more or less equal in terms of power production.
Swing Versus Snatch | StrongFirst

Kind regards,

Pet'
Click to expand...
I'm sure this is true, and I'm also sure that snatching a 24kg bell 100 times is as much exercise as anyone of any strength needs for the "big pull" movement in a day. However, I still find the movement awkward, and since I have my 32kg, I'm content doing swings.

Someday I suppose I need to practice to do snatches well.
 
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