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Other/Mixed Short Thoughts on Martial Arts I've Done

Other strength modalities (e.g., Clubs), mixed strength modalities (e.g., combined kettlebell and barbell), other goals (flexibility)
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J Petersen said:
One unfortunate symptom that persists: there are combinations in Shotokan karate that you can set your watch by.
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I did Shotokan Karate and that certainly is a factor. Our dojo was a kickboxing dojo though so the traditional Karate was about 50 percent of the training, the rest was freestyle sparring. People from other Shotokan schools were very predictable and almost mechanical in some respects.

Any martial art that doesn't involve any freestyle sparring is in many ways practicing dance moves. Much like any other choreographed routine, it may look impressive but it's not very effective in a real fight.

Anyone who thinks traditional Karate will help them in a real world altercation would probably get seriously hurt if the first blow didn't KO or incapacitate their opponent.

A good boxer would put them in their place most of the time. Even a rubgy style brawler who'd grab them by the shirt and pound their face to a pulp would be too much to deal with for many trained in non grappling forms of Japanese (Okinawan) martial arts.
 
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I think a good many traditional martial arts fit in that category. Unless the practitioner is extremely adept at their art (and even then...) would they be effective in a real brawl. I'm sure there are notable exceptions.

But then again many of these are not practiced for real life practical combative purposes.

I trained in a variety of Japanese sword arts for many years. Unless I am carrying a bokken or a katana with me I would be be pretty useless in a fight. (Actually probably useless with one too...)

Likewise I practice Tai-Chi daily. It's not 'empty practice' because I am always mindful of the martial applications. Yet I am under no illusions...
 
Karate is a kind of "Naked Warrior" programme for someone who wants to train alone without weapons. What do you do? It's like our SF Naked Warrior programme - you make the best of what you've got, which is NOTHING, and you focus on what you can get the most "bang for your training buck" out of. And what is that? Repeatedly hitting makiwara posts so your hands turn into clubs that can break other people's bones. The makiwara training is about 50% of Karate. The rest is 25% basic moves like grab&punch or block&punch and katas which give you something to do to keep your mind alert and sharp while you're totally alone. They're narrative too, so actually like story-telling. Without makiwara training, Karate is still meaningful, fun, and of some use for self-defence of course to be sure, but about 90% of its effectiveness is taken away. It would be like Naked Warrior without the one armed pushups or PTTP without the deadlifts!!! Also, Karate is not Japanese - it's Okinawan and a product of particular weird circumstances in that country's history where the royal palace guards were not allowed to carry weapons! Weird eh? Wonderful too! It descends from Chinese Kung Fu which from what I've read comes from basic Chinese military training done before learning to hold actual weapons. That's my take on Karate at least.

Again, I think a fair compromise between practical fighting skills and fun is quite reasonable in our civilized society. For instance, in my not so humble opinion, Judo is more practical for real fighting than BJJ, but I recommend BJJ over judo to people looking for a martial art. Why? Because BJJ gives you as much self-defence stuff as you're likely to need ever and it's done without any real discomfort whereas judo has lots of falling down, which is both scary AND painful(!), which means it's only for tough mo-fos, which is like 1% of the population. For myself, I prefer judo, but I don't consider myself to be your typical dilettante.
 
I'm at a heart a boxing fan and from what I've seen in terms of striking with the hands the boxer is out on his own. Even in a self defence situation a boxer will be extremely dangerous. I've boxed, tried BJJ and K Maga and I'm training in M Thai at the moment. A big regret is not finding BJJ when I was younger as I haven't the time to dedicate to it at the moment. As mentioned above martial arts without sparring is just dance moves. I know a number of guys who have been training in functional martial arts and who are black Belts simply because they have accrued 100 hours practice. They actually think they can disarm a someone with a knife....delusional and dangerous..my go to guys in all of this are Geoff Thompson and Matt Thornton...
 
@conor78
One of the very first lessons my first real MA instructor imparted to me - don't box a boxer, don't wrestle a wrestler.

Boxing is great and one of the reasons so many MA trapping technique don't work in the real world without some form of set-up. This same instructor had incredible hand speed, and would use what he called "pepper shots" - fast strikes, mostly finger and open hand strikes, with intention to draw a defensive arm movement he could then jam or trap. It isn't even worth attempting to do that with offensive boxing strikes, you have to gain the initiative even if just for a second.

Dealing with boxers is why even at my most flamboyant (my roommate and I would sometimes kick Gatorade bottles off each other's heads, even with a planted support foot but mostly jumpers), in application is all low kicks designed to ruin mobility, nothing higher than the floating ribs. Wrestlers and groundfighters love high kickers too, so many reasons to not use them.

It also is very easy to reinforce boxing hand and footwork with large amounts of solo drills, and really make the most of your sparring time. Much like Escrima did for my hand coordination, boxing footwork really tied it all together and made it a lot easier to learn circular footwork as well.

I remember back in the mid 80s I worked with a bunch of brothers from one of the tougher neighborhoods in the city. They showed me a little 52 hand blocks to add to boxing base (is amazing to me some folks don't believe this is a real tradition). I really only use a couple of them in practice, looking more like panantukan. Similar to this clip I stumbled across:
 
Add to the above re boxing. I've been slowly working my kids into the basics and thinking my daughter (and by extension many women or smaller boned men) will break her bones if she hit someone much larger in the skull with any real force.

That's why my recent interest in checking out some of the bare knuckle fight videos, to see how the people who get paid to bare knuckle change the basics to suit the reality. Still very similar, but they really choke back on the power, increase accuracy, and counterpunching is huge. Some of the defensive boxing technique that works with gloves does not work so well with sweaty fists.
 
first and best rule I learned about fighting, other than avoid it: don't ever hit anyone with a closed fist.
 
@North Coast Miller it's a fascinating topic. My Dad would have shown me how to box when I younger. Back then boxing and mainstream Karate were the dominant forces. It wasn't until I had kids that I rediscovered my interest in boxing and contact sports. Over here Irish Travellers still have bare knuckle contests to settle disputes and you're right, it changes the dynamic from wearing gloves. I have a serious respect for the BJJ guys..they have a great vibe..MMA changed the paradigm in many ways....but for me boxing is my real passion..I have daughters but haven't shown them any combinations yet..you've stolen the march on me..
 
I wish I'd been exposed to it a little more when I was younger as well. Having older brothers I mostly got good at cheap shots and running! And getting whooped on!

We had a pair of huge vintage gloves from the late 40s early 50s and every now and then we'd have "Block Olympics" with the whole street, boxing being one of the events.

I still remember with great nostalgia and fondness the right hook my one brother landed on my other brother and knocked half a tooth out of his head - arching in a slow motion pirouette to the turf - was a beautiful moment - the bro that had the tooth popped out was a relentless bully to the younger siblings and naturally, we all cheered wildly. Ahhh, the joys of growing up in a large family, someone was always getting what they had coming to 'em!

Wasn't till I was in my late teens that got back into it.

I started the kids a few years ago doing "paddy cake" sinawali and heaven and earth six drills but they lost interest and only recently have wanted to slap box - they'll take any opportunity to get a lick in on me! I'll take it!

If they're having fun they'll keep at it, and I'm slowly getting them to use punching and defensive technique. In the meantime is good exercise.
 
Any type of martial art is good for kids, teaches them a lot and builds confidence. I enjoy my KB too much to commit totally to M Thai but I like the sparring and it's great for all round conditioning..
Self defence is a different matter, big difference we have seen over here is the willingness of attackers to continue to strike when someone hits the ground..in my day it was fists only and if someone hit the turf that was is..Queensbury rules no longer apply. Times have changed
 
Speaking as a member of the military I feel Boxing and Judo/Wrestling provide the best base for self defense. I've trained in TKD, Karate, MT and BJJ and they all have great value. Boxing and stand up grappling arts allow you to control the fight, no matter where it ends up. Boxing defense is great for slipping, bobbing and weaving as well as teaching counter striking. Stand up grappling allows you to control an individual when there is an actual struggle. The grappling arts also teach you to control on the ground. Kicks are super cool and can inflict damage but they are hard to pull off with body armor and weapons. In a civilian situation you can't kick well in a crowded area. Knees are great for that though. Give me Boxing and Judo all day, everyday. Just my opinion.
 
North Coast Miller said:
I still remember with great nostalgia and fondness the right hook my one brother landed on my other brother and knocked half a tooth out of his head - arching in a slow motion pirouette to the turf - was a beautiful moment - the bro that had the tooth popped out was a relentless bully to the younger siblings and naturally, we all cheered wildly. Ahhh, the joys of growing up in a large family, someone was always getting what they had coming to 'em!
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Ah that moment of pure joy when the neighbourhood bully gets his come comeuppance and that priceless look of shock and confusion on his face in that instant when everyone cheers & he realises what everyone really thinks of him.
 
Great wisdom in this thread. My thoughts regarding martial arts and self-defence are that any style is 'effective' provided that the school/gym/dojo you attend emphasises full-contact sparring; hit and get hit (or even better, don't get hit by said individual trying to hit you). Anything less is useless for real life self defence, as one who has not experienced sparring will freeze when hit due to the shock of never having been hit before.

With this in mind, boxing is the only martial art (or even sport in general) that I've ever had the motivation to stick with, and at least here in England, there are gyms everywhere, and it is always dirt cheap. I'm yet to go to a boxing gym where it cost more than £2 per session. Therefore, due to accessibility, affordability, and the emphasis on sparring, boxing gets my vote every time. Again though, anything involving full-contact sparring ought to do the trick.
 
I have to link another vid of Bas Rutten describing some of his open hand striking. Jump to 3 minute mark to get to the meat and potatoes.

I wound up modifying a lot of my rear hand punching to more open hand and end of forearm strikes similar to his philosophy. It gets very tough to use these sparring as they range less and require more commitment. But the basic boxing mech is so easy to adapt to different striking methods. The 45° footwork, mobility, and power generation are the important constants. And the jab (Double up on the jab!).

Another thing I used to work on often was striking the back of the opponent's hands with jabs and crosses. I did use it sometimes sparring but is tough to gauge effectiveness in that venue as we often had those fingerless sparring mitts with foam insert covering the back of hand. It is interesting that trained opponents often won't react to this as it plays into their defensive conditioning - they don't pick it up as a threat. The less trained someone is the more they will move their hands to avoid the contact.

I would use a similar strategy in Kali knife sparring, target the knife hand with a convincing feint (it will hit if they fail to react), but the real target is their alive hand. If they engage it to help redirect, often they actually increase the impact speed as I'm already heading for it on my follow through.

 
ShawnM said:
Speaking as a member of the military I feel Boxing and Judo/Wrestling provide the best base for self defense. I've trained in TKD, Karate, MT and BJJ and they all have great value. Boxing and stand up grappling arts allow you to control the fight, no matter where it ends up. Boxing defense is great for slipping, bobbing and weaving as well as teaching counter striking. Stand up grappling allows you to control an individual when there is an actual struggle. The grappling arts also teach you to control on the ground. Kicks are super cool and can inflict damage but they are hard to pull off with body armor and weapons. In a civilian situation you can't kick well in a crowded area. Knees are great for that though. Give me Boxing and Judo all day, everyday. Just my opinion.
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I agree. Also, boxing is in effect weapons training as adding a weapon to your hand like a knife etc is hardly changing the movements.
 
I always enjoy watching Bas Rutten. Very knowledgable guy, I have his audio workouts that I work the bag with. I remember reading somewhere that the KB is snatch is as close to fighting without throwing a punch and I can see why. I'm training it at the moment and my conditioning is pretty good in sparring. One big takeaway from studying boxing etc is that it isn't the big muscle bound guy you need to be wary of. Most of the dangerous characters walk around as wiry yet powerful tightly wound springs. I enjoy the personal challenge of martial art training but a self defence situation is a totally different animal.
 
I agree. Plus you have to be careful with any tradition that makes use of weight classes in competition - its usually for a reason. Although bare knuckle tends to flatten some of this out there are still limits.

Me using boxing on someone like Kimbo isn't going to give me much of a chance.
 
conor78 said:
I always enjoy watching Bas Rutten. Very knowledgable guy, I have his audio workouts that I work the bag with. I remember reading somewhere that the KB is snatch is as close to fighting without throwing a punch and I can see why. I'm training it at the moment and my conditioning is pretty good in sparring. One big takeaway from studying boxing etc is that it isn't the big muscle bound guy you need to be wary of. Most of the dangerous characters walk around as wiry yet powerful tightly wound springs. I enjoy the personal challenge of martial art training but a self defence situation is a totally different animal.
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Good point about the conditioning being more important than raw strength. I don't have much experience with the snatch, but I could see how it would be better than the swing for sparring conditioning. The swing will have to win for grappling/wrestling, but the snatch for sparring.
 
IMHO the kb snatch is probably the best conditioning to for MA. High rep snatches done with power over 1-3 minutes for rounds is amazing total body conditioning. S&S is great for making a martial artist strong and powerful, snatches for high reps is like sparring without getting your a$$ whooped.
 
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