Kettlebell Shoulder health: TGU vs Clean & Press.

[Anna C]

I'm not sure what angle you're talking about? What angle do hangs get that TGU doesn't?

Both movements include a full overhead position (that is the only one that dead hangs include). With the TGU you need active upward rotation of the scapula to achieve that, versus with a dead hang that scapular rotation is largely passive, so if you can do it with a dead hang but not with TGU then it's a strength / stability issue, not an issue of the position.

Instructors who teach the TGU sometimes forget how sloppy TGUs can get when they are done by untrained individuals. Not to say this is the case with @barrak. But what I have seen, here on the forum and also in my gym among people that I'm not training, is that someone can do a TGU without a good overhead position. You just sort of keep the bell "up there somewhere" and it's possible to do the whole movement without a good elbow lock, biceps is nowhere near the ear, wrist may not be straight, even the body may not be standing up straight in the standing position. So in that case, the described objectives would not be achieved.

 

[Incoqnito]

My voto goet to the TGU. It helped through some tough time.

 

[barrak]

I'm not sure what angle you're talking about? What angle do hangs get that TGU doesn't?

Both movements include a full overhead position (that is the only one that dead hangs include). With the TGU you need active upward rotation of the scapula to achieve that, versus with a dead hang that scapular rotation is largely passive, so if you can do it with a dead hang but not with TGU then it's a strength / stability issue, not an issue of the position.

Sorry, I meant the arm position where it is locked out and actually behind the ear. For example while deep in a squat holding a bell or a barbell over your head.

Dead hangs help in achieving true vertical lockout as you said, though their real value is in expanding the space within the shoulder joint, thus relieving the impingement. I also do them with anchored feet, one foot behind the pullup bar and holding a plank to stretch my shoulders into a snatched barbell position. Soon, I hope, I'll be able to hold an empty barbell overhead and progressively do partial squats.

 

[barrak]

Instructors who teach the TGU sometimes forget how sloppy TGUs can get when they are done by untrained individuals. Not to say this is the case with @barrak. But what I have seen, here on the forum and also in my gym among people that I'm not training, is that someone can do a TGU without a good overhead position. You just sort of keep the bell "up there somewhere" and it's possible to do the whole movement without a good elbow lock, biceps is nowhere near the ear, wrist may not be straight, even the body may not be standing up straight in the standing position. So in that case, the described objectives would not be achieved.

I used to have that soft and forward lockout position when I was doing getups with the 16K. The 24K forced me to make the necessary corrections, along with some feedback from this forum and from own video scrutiny, and of course benefiting from the dead hangs..

 

[James Sullivan]

I like arm bars and crooked arm bars for mobility or if I'm personally working through injuries.

 

[watchnerd]

I'm not sure what is the ranking criterion here. Is it according to shoulder mobility enhancement, strength building or tolerance to shoulder issues?

My current shoulders' health allows me to do all the above except 1, 4 and especially 5.

My personal criteria.

Health, mobility, strength, pretty much in that order.

I have to be able to barbell snatch from a full squat, then stand up, without falling on my butt or tearing off my shoulders like an angry Wookiee.

 

[watchnerd]

The TGU indeed is an excellent shoulder mobility drill. However, it misses one crucial angle. I had an upper cross syndrome that caused impingement during overhead presses and still makes sots presses and overhead barbell squats impossible. Yet, I could do TGUs with perfect form since it never goes there.

Dead hangs totally fixed the impingement. Thoracic foam rolls, mace back swings and primal squats are steadily bringing me closer to perform overhead squats.

I'm not sure what angle you're talking about? What angle do hangs get that TGU doesn't?

Both movements include a full overhead position (that is the only one that dead hangs include). With the TGU you need active upward rotation of the scapula to achieve that, versus with a dead hang that scapular rotation is largely passive, so if you can do it with a dead hang but not with TGU then it's a strength / stability issue, not an issue of the position.

Traction effect is what TGU is missing.

Although KB swings also give a nice traction effect, it's only in one plane.

I feel a lot better when I get some extra traction work in.

Hangs are one way.

For me, even better is mace work.

 

[watchnerd]

The TGU puts your shoulders (plural ... don't forget the bottom shoulder) into essentially every position / angle of flexion & extension and abduction & adduction imaginable

Mmmm...not *quite* every position imaginable, at least not for extended periods of time.

I can get into angles with gymnastic rings and barbell snatch that are ranges of motion the TGU passes through very briefly, but not that you're required to stabilize in or hold for longer periods.

Or the arm position might be similar, but the gravity pull is different.

An obvious example (that I don't do), is the iron cross.

A snatch balance (that I do), is another.....you arms are not only further behind your head, but you're in a barbell snatch grip...basically being in a squat with your arms shaped like a Y.

 

[JamesPTA]

snatch balance (that I do), is another.....you arms are not only further behind your head, but you're in a barbell snatch grip...basically being in a squat with your arms shaped like a Y

I get what you are saying as a rebuttal to Tony’s comment, but is that the best position for a shoulder to be in for overall health for individuals who do not participate in competitive O-lifting? I think this is the main question for OP. Hangs are awesome by the way!

I think it’s safe to assume that everyone is built and moves differently so it’s tough to say which exercise is going to be the best for shoulder health. Given the choices of TGU and C&P, my vote goes TGU because of the multiple angles of both arms and under compression.

personally, anything that compresses the shoulder joint and rotates my T-spine has always brought my shoulder back to 100%. Get ups, windmills, arm bars, and bent presses always win for me

 

[watchnerd]

I get what you are saying as a rebuttal to Tony’s comment, but is that the best position for a shoulder to be in for overall health for individuals who do not participate in competitive O-lifting? I think this is the main question for OP. Hangs are awesome by the way!

I think it’s safe to assume that everyone is built and moves differently so it’s tough to say which exercise is going to be the best for shoulder health. Given the choices of TGU and C&P, my vote goes TGU because of the multiple angles of both arms and under compression.

personally, anything that compresses the shoulder joint and rotates my T-spine has always brought my shoulder back to 100%. Get ups, windmills, arm bars, and bent presses always win for me

With heavy weights, gosh no. Not even an empty barbell.

But with a broomstick or PVC pipe?

Yeah, I think broomstick snatch balance is great low risk shoulder health exercise for the general populace, especially for the coordination of simultaneous thoracic extension with core bracing and hip mobility.

Holding that isometrically for 30 seconds is a great place to start,

I also forgot a huge one (for me) on my list:

Bottoms up kettlebell press / carries has also done wonders for me.

 

[Kozushi]

TGUs are amazing. In my own case, when I'm fighting to get over shoulder problems, I use my 16kg bell(s) and do military presses with them either single or double. This is why I'm NEVER giving away my 16kgs!

 

[NormanOsborn]

I'm going to the gym today. Think I'll try some Dead Hangs on the pull up bar. Any advice on the rep/time range?

 

[Tony Gracia]

Mmmm...not *quite* every position imaginable, at least not for extended periods of time.

I can get into angles with gymnastic rings and barbell snatch that are ranges of motion the TGU passes through very briefly, but not that you're required to stabilize in or hold for longer periods.

Or the arm position might be similar, but the gravity pull is different.

An obvious example (that I don't do), is the iron cross.

A snatch balance (that I do), is another.....you arms are not only further behind your head, but you're in a barbell snatch grip...basically being in a squat with your arms shaped like a Y.

Kind of splitting hairs there, but the low windmill of the TGU is more or less the same position as iron cross (both arms are out to the side forming a shape similar to a capital T). Yes, that will vary a bit from person to person due to arm length, torso length, blah blah. Of course, nobody is comparing difficulty of a TGU to an iron cross (apples and oranges), nor is anyone saying the force vectors are the same, but the shoulder positions are pretty darn similar.

You also pass through that "Y" position as you transition up from the low windmill into the half-kneeling / lunge position, and spend time stabilizing something very similar in the low sit and/or tall sit. See photo.

 

[watchnerd]

nor is anyone saying the force vectors are the same

Different force vectors make a heck of a difference.

 

[watchnerd]

You also pass through that "Y" position as you transition up from the low windmill into the half-kneeling / lunge position, and spend time stabilizing something very similar in the low sit and/or tall.

It's more of a half Y. You don't have both shoulders up.

Also, in a snatch, your arm is not perpendicular the ground. The force vector on the arm and shoulder is *very* different

Pelvis in half kneeling / lunge / seated is also different from pelvis in a squat (usually with APT) and what this means for thoracic extension vis a vis shoulders.

This (note the simultaneous APT and thoracic extension, arms not perpendicular to floor / gravity):

Is different from this:

I love the TGU, it covers a lot, arguably might be the top choice "desert island" shoulder exercise.

But there really are other shoulder exercises that compliment it well and fill in some of the white space.

 

[barrak]

I'm going to the gym today. Think I'll try some Dead Hangs on the pull up bar. Any advice on the rep/time range?

Definitely ease into it. You don't wanna hang your full weight from the get go. Here is a suggested progression if you've never done them before or never done pullups or have a severe case of rounded shoulders:

1. Face the wall and slide your arms up and down the wall as high as you can without arching your lower back. Do it multiple times a day.
2. Partial hangs with feet taking some or all your weight. You can stay with this one for weeks.
3. Dead hangs with knees tucked in.

Time under tension can be as little as 10 seconds for each rep, 5 reps or so. One-minute each rep is plenty. I typically alternate them with primal squats. In time you can fall asleep hanging there.

Caution: It might be somewhat painful initially and the discomfort may take several weeks to subside. Also, you might want to get a set of leather grips if your hands are not conditioned enough.

I strongly recommend you forget about doing them just at the gym. They need to be done GTG style throughout the day or at least the evening. A $20-$30 door mounted pullup bracket is a good investment. Hang it over your bathroom door and use it every time you go there, if not more.

 

[barrak]

That is my target for 2021. The stance, not the lady.

 

[watchnerd]

That is my target for 2021. The stance, not the lady.

If one wants to get slightly fancy with it as a beginner, the Rogue War Bar is a plastic tube of barbell length and diameter with fake knurl marks on it so you can assess your grip width consistently. It's not at all necessary, but they're only $13.

I keep one in my home office so I can do snatch balances during the work day.

 

[NormanOsborn]

Definitely ease into it. You don't wanna hang your full weight from the get go. Here is a suggested progression if you've never done them before or never done pullups or have a severe case of rounded shoulders:

1. Face the wall and slide your arms up and down the wall as high as you can without arching your lower back. Do it multiple times a day.
2. Partial hangs with feet taking some or all your weight. You can stay with this one for weeks.
3. Dead hangs with knees tucked in.

Time under tension can be as little as 10 seconds for each rep, 5 reps or so. One-minute each rep is plenty. I typically alternate them with primal squats. In time you can fall asleep hanging there.

Caution: It might be somewhat painful initially and the discomfort may take several weeks to subside. Also, you might want to get a set of leather grips if your hands are not conditioned enough.

I strongly recommend you forget about doing them just at the gym. They need to be done GTG style throughout the day or at least the evening. A $20-$30 door mounted pullup bracket is a good investment. Hang it over your bathroom door and use it every time you go there, if not more.

I'm very wary of pull up bars, to be honest. I got one at the beginning of the year. Used it for a couple of weeks with no problem at all. Then one night, without warning, it came away from the wall and I landed with my ankles trapped under me. On concrete. Ended up with a fractured ankle that took a couple of months to heal.

 

[watchnerd]

Instructors who teach the TGU sometimes forget how sloppy TGUs can get when they are done by untrained individuals. Not to say this is the case with @barrak. But what I have seen, here on the forum and also in my gym among people that I'm not training, is that someone can do a TGU without a good overhead position. You just sort of keep the bell "up there somewhere" and it's possible to do the whole movement without a good elbow lock, biceps is nowhere near the ear, wrist may not be straight, even the body may not be standing up straight in the standing position. So in that case, the described objectives would not be achieved.

+1

I find the TGU to have an interesting "cheat curve" compared to other lifts.

I get sloppy with it at vastly opposite ends of the spectrum.

Too heavy (>90% 1RM), and I have form breakdown (like most lifts).

Too light, and I can just get completely lazy about it and still "get up".

Personally, I have to be in the upper-mid difficulty zone where I'm forced to "take it seriously", not so heavy I fall apart, but not so light I can just lol faceroll.