Simple & Sinister - General discussion

[North Woods]

Long time lurker, first time poster. I started S&S in October of this year. Some context: I'm a 40-year old male, with a decent background in fitness. Long distance cycling, free weights, boxing and most recently (don't judge) HIIT, before I was enlightened. I'm not sure if Pavel reads these posts, and I'm definitely not the first to say: thank you sir, you changed my life. Came across his videos on YouTube a lot over the past year before really studying them around the time I turned 40. Read S&S 2.0, and also paid attention to the videos of Anna Cannington and Cody Jarrett on YouTube (you all are inspiring!).

In October I started swings and getups with 16kg and by mid-November felt comfortable enough to move on to 24kg. So far so good. I'm easing into the swings with a mix of 2H and 1H. Swinging a 24kg kettlebell is a hell of a rush. There is a learning curve with the grip with the 24kg. The getups are harder for me. At this point, I can do 6 getups with the 24kg, and the remaining 4 with the 16kg. I'm trying to be patient and really focus on form. Today there was some tenderness on my right elbow only in the final part of the getup, when I'm lowering the weight. I do possibly have ever so slight tendonitis from an old cycling injury there, but I'm also curious if anyone has something of the same when lowering the weight?

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

I'm probably preaching to the choir here but--for my day job, I'm a mental health and substance use therapist, and fairly attuned to changes in my own nervous system, emotional regulation, etc. Running S&S has created significant positive changes on that front for me. Up until recently, I wasn't aware of how much HIIT was exhausting me. S&S is like adding premium fuel to the tank. I also had two nagging alignment issues, one with my neck and another with my lower back, both of which have almost totally vanished, a twist on the what-the-hell effect.

 

[Steve Freides]

@North Woods, welcome to the StrongFirst forum.

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

I haven't completed Timeless Simple because my knees don't allow the getups, and my less-than-stellar t-spine mobility doesn't allow me to do the squat version of the getup on my right side.

But I have completed 10 x 10 x 1h swings with a 32 kg at 150 lbs and 68 years young. I have no idea of the timing - I just started doing swings and followed the guidance in the book in general terms, which is to say I step-cycled - whenever I felt a significant improvement in my comfort level with a particular weight, I added a little bit, and gradually I got there. No rush, no hurry. In my case, I compete at powerlifting and that's my focus, so I never did swings 5 days a week, just 2-3 days a week, getting them in whenever I felt my other training allowed, sometimes even as few as 20 or 40 swings in a day but the volume does add up so long as you don't make a steady diet of only short session.

-S-

 

[BillSteamshovel]

I can do 6 getups with the 24kg, and the remaining 4 with the 16kg. I'm trying to be patient and really focus on form. Today there was some tenderness on my right elbow only in the final part of the getup, when I'm lowering the weight. I do possibly have ever so slight tendonitis from an old cycling injury there, but I'm also curious if anyone has something of the same when lowering the weight?

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

Hello North Woods,

Am roughly where you are regarding 24kg getups - a challenge but do-able. Has taken me two years so far but took detours doing some other programs along the way, its called bright shiny object syndrome.

Some people are doing the S&S with 4kg jumps instead of 8kg jumps ie 16 20 24 28 32instead of 16 24 32. I found it easier to go 16 20 24 than jumping straight to 24 .

 

[Pete L]

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

I played around doing S&S for a couple of years while rehabing a shoulder. Typically using 20 and 24 kg at the local municipal gym.
I then bought a 32 kg bell during the first lock down. 16 weeks later I had achieved Timeless Simple.
The first get up was plain intimidating. But once I had the skill and strength to do one set of both TGU and 1H swings, I found my body quickly adapted based on the four week blocks of progression.
Good luck.

 

[masa]

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

I started 8th of January 2015 and achieved Timeless Simple on 12th of May 2017. In 2016 I slipped on an icy asphalt and the left knee needed a surgery, so that slowed my progression a bit. But it took time still. I've tried to start the S&S multiple times, but I have other physical limitations too, like scoliosis, so maybe those Timed achievements are postponed to the next life.

Before S&S I did bodybuilding type of training in the 90's. Like Weider system and then Arnold's Golden Six. After that more powerlifting type of stuff like Starting Strength and Texas Method. Kettlebell training started in 2011 with Girevoy Sport type of training and then I moved to Program Minimum and ROP from the ETK book. After that S&S book came and I started to doing it. During the S&S I did PTTP too. After the S&S I have tried many programs due to limitations etc. and done some Girevoy Sport type of training too. Currently I'm doing Aleks Salkin's 9 min challenge and 4-Hour Body book swings. Still desire of starting the S&S is somewhere in there. Maybe with the 2H swings and squat version of getups would work. Dunno.

 

[Cyrus-II]

...For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

Almost 47 now.
I got close about seven months in, then was out in the bush for a few weeks, brought back some tweaks and nagging tightness, plateaued, got hurt. Sorted myself out with some help this year around March, started progressing again and reached it sometime late spring or early summer of this year, I think.

But I got busy this summer and de-loaded almost the entire time and just waved my loads. That got me by. Even though I didn't use my 32KG much and mainly stuck to the 24KG, I haven't lost anything strength, except maybe in my press. I couldn't strict press the 32KG anymore when I tried about 3-4 weeks ago.
In hindsight I wished I'd slowed down even more early on when I started two years ago this coming February. Because I've ended up plateauing three times now, with one setback period this past winter.
There is something to progressing too fast. I think also age, overall weight/height/size and previous sedentary habits for some can also slow down the progress. I'm now at the point where I can do the 1H swings and TGU's with the 32KG in about 30-35 min and 10-15 min respectively, without feeling it the following day.

Someone suggested a few pages back that doing the step loading and counting number of training sessions instead of weeks seemed to work better for him. And I think that was a really insightful observation. If you do 2-3 sessions a week, then after 20 sessions try step loading more weight into the sets. Obviously if you're doing 4-6 per week you should be able to do step progression every month, but you're less likely to hit the wall if you give your body enough time to rest, pay attention to your diet and make sure you get plenty of sleep.

Circling back to your mention of HIIT. I don't believe it's inherently wrong per se, but over emphasized and overused, I think would be the better way of putting it.
In Pavel's S&S book even he mentioned "throwing the crazy switch" periodically. But that might be something like 5-10% of the time, not like the "every single workout" CF, meth addled squirrel-like youtube caricatures push all over social media.

 

[jmoran01]

I played around doing S&S for a couple of years while rehabing a shoulder. Typically using 20 and 24 kg at the local municipal gym.
I then bought a 32 kg bell during the first lock down. 16 weeks later I had achieved Timeless Simple.
The first get up was plain intimidating. But once I had the skill and strength to do one set of both TGU and 1H swings, I found my body quickly adapted based on the four week blocks of progression.
Good luck.

I’m rehabbing my shoulder and was thinking of running S&S! Did you do it 4-5x per week? Did the TGU irritate your shoulder? Also did S&S cause you to lose strength and muscle? Sounds like the opposite which is encouraging.

 

[Adachi]

For those who have completed Timeless Simple, how long was your journey? I'm in no rush, just curious.

Took me about a year.

 

[Pete L]

Did you do it 4-5x per week?

Typically 3 or 4 times per week

Did the TGU irritate your shoulder?

Quite the contrary. It helped me overcome scapula dyskinesis and impingement post shoulder decompression surgery.

Also did S&S cause you to lose strength and muscle? Sounds like the opposite which is encouraging.

No, it caused me to get stronger and fitter and was a great base for my kickboxing and later kettlebell work.

 

[JRockne]

Working with 36 lbs. it’s pretty easy now. Should I go up to 44 lbs or 56? I’m 58 yrscold.

 

[Jtminster]

Working with 36 lbs. it’s pretty easy now. Should I go up to 44 lbs or 56? I’m 58 yrscold.

It’s really a decision you need to make. I’m 64 and weigh 90k. No real prior weight lifting experience. I made the jump from 16 to 24. Currently working through the 32. It’s a challenge but not impossible.

 

[Crown and Anchor]

It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...

I am on my way there: I started at 16kg in late October 2022, and am currently at six sets with the 32kg and four with the 16kg. It looks like I'll be up to eight and two by next week. I started at a bodyweight of 123 and am down to 110.

 

[JRockne]

I’ll probably make the 8kg jump. Adding to sets every 24 workouts is probably doable. I’d like to be doing timeless simple in a year.

 

[Simon L]

Working with 36 lbs. it’s pretty easy now. Should I go up to 44 lbs or 56? I’m 58 yrscold.

I got good results with the 4kg jumps. Its less demanding psychologically and gives more time to refine technique with a lighter weight which has benefits too.

As has been suggested earlier, another option is to go 16 to 24 then use the 28kg to get to the 32kg. Equally you can use a different progression for swings and get ups if they are progressing at different rates.

The call is yours, but I would ask myself how good is my technique and how does my body feel. If both are great then try the 24kg, if its too challenging you can always drop down to a 20. If your body - particularly grip and hands - is still adapting and technique being refined I'd go with the 20kg.

 

[JRockne]

That’s probably good advice. Not missing workouts because of injury or sickness is important. Taking the smaller step would help,avoid that.

 

[Simon L]

That’s probably good advice. Not missing workouts because of injury or sickness is important. Taking the smaller step would help,avoid that.

The steps are half as long with 4kg jumps so it takes the same amount of time. I.E 16-24kg is 20 weeks at 4 weeks per step, 16-20kg is 10 weeks at 2 weeks per step. But yes I think its particularly beneficial for grip and hands which tend to be the limiting factor earlier on. Also sticking at a higher frequency - 5-6 days a week - is really beneficial earlier on while you're refining your technique with a lighter weight. Using the bigger steps may make it harder to maintain this. For myself I've had to drop the frequency as the weights have gone up.

 

[Pete L]

The steps are half as long with 4kg jumps so it takes the same amount of time. I.E 16-24kg is 20 weeks at 4 weeks per step, 16-20kg is 10 weeks at 2 weeks per step. But yes I think its particularly beneficial for grip and hands which tend to be the limiting factor earlier on. Also sticking at a higher frequency - 5-6 days a week - is really beneficial earlier on while you're refining your technique with a lighter weight. Using the bigger steps may make it harder to maintain this. For myself I've had to drop the frequency as the weights have gone up.

Strictly speaking 9 weeks or 17 weeks.
I progressed with 32 to 36 kg using two week steps fine.

 

[Simon L]

Strictly speaking 9 weeks or 17 weeks.
I progressed with 32 to 36 kg using two week steps fine.

True, 9/17 weeks to fully integrate that weight then an additional 1/3 weeks to stabilise and own that step before progressing to the next.

 

[Pete L]

True, 9/17 weeks to fully integrate that weight then an additional 1/3 weeks to stabilise and own that step before progressing to the next.

Apologies, feel like I'm coming across argumentative...
My personal experience was consolidation took several months. In this period I gained confidence, could transition to a more meditive state for the TGU and naturally compressed the workout duration.

 

[IvoD]

I bought my first 32kg bell yesterday, did few swings and also the get up. I was afraid of that weight for get up, and thought that I will just give it a try - to press it with both hands and maybe do partial get up, but it did go through all the way. I was coming from 24kg bell which I felt comfortable with, doing 5 reps each side in about 15mins. I must say that I had my technique corrected by certified trainers during the summer. I strongly recommend doing that, because until then my technique was not good even I thought so. I did read the book S&S and watched videos, but anyway I was doing it wrong. My elbow wasn't out stretched and the shoulder couldn't sit where it is supposed to be. I'm excited, did it again this morning, my body feels good and I'm headed for timeless simple.