Pete L
Level 6 Valued Member
Totally agree.
Simple & Sinister - General discussion
- Thread starter SUOMI-PUKU
- Start date
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Anyone who reads this and responds is my hero! Its long, but i feel like it needed context for the questions and concerns i have about S&S.
I am brand new here and also in the fitness world. I have just quit smoking cigarettes (this time for good - i can feel it) I was a two pack a day smoker for at least the last 15 years. I'm 35 and started smoking at age 14. I haven't touched a cigarette in over 2 months now. I contribute my progress to working out since day 1 of quitting the habit.
Anyway, since day 1 of quitting i have been trying to find a good simple routine i can do everyday. Finding a routine that i am satisfied with has proven to be difficult. I don't have time to do a 3 hour workout everyday and i everything i read about different muscle groups and how many sets per muscle group .. blah blah blah.. has been pretty over whelming, as every article i read contradicts the article before (much like trying to get nutrition help off the web). So of coarse, I found myself experimenting over the last few months with lots of different modes using mainly dumbbells, and bodyweight stuff like push ups and pullups. I have read so many contradictory things on feeling the burn, or being super sore for a few days after a workout. The thing is feeling sore and feeling the burn has been a huge factor in not smoking. As long as i am feeling a little swollen after a work out it reminds me that i am making a little progress and i stay motivated not to smoke. After reading S&S 2.0 I really believe its best not to feel torn up days after a work out or even need to feel a burn during the work out other than a small % of the time as Pavel explains. After my first day of Timeless Simple i realize that i can still feel as though i had a great workout without being torn up or sore the next day, and is still enough to remind me that i am making some progress and don't need to smoke anymore.
So i found Simple and Sinister and finished the book in the last 2 days and I am really excited about it for these reasons:
But i am also wondering if its the right place to start for me (psychologically speaking). Yesterday was my first day doing S&S and i did 10/10 1HS and 1/10 TGU as the book said both with 16kg. I have no doubt that it will improve my strength, but seeing progress on my physique will be a huge encouragement. I feel like the Swings and Get-ups really miss my chest and biceps. So here are my concerns about it:
I really want to do things right and i know the book says not to change the program or add anything to it, but i feel like i would be happier if i could throw in some push-ups or pull-ups every other day so i feel like i am making progress on my chest and biceps too.
Can anyone address my concerns with this program and tell me im wrong. Or point me in the direction of a StrongFirst Program that is almost as simple and will also feel like im working on my chest and biceps? Then maybe come back to this program after i have reached my modest size and physique goals. Any advice will help.
I deeply appreciate anyone who has read all the way through this and responds.
I am brand new here and also in the fitness world. I have just quit smoking cigarettes (this time for good - i can feel it) I was a two pack a day smoker for at least the last 15 years. I'm 35 and started smoking at age 14. I haven't touched a cigarette in over 2 months now. I contribute my progress to working out since day 1 of quitting the habit.
Anyway, since day 1 of quitting i have been trying to find a good simple routine i can do everyday. Finding a routine that i am satisfied with has proven to be difficult. I don't have time to do a 3 hour workout everyday and i everything i read about different muscle groups and how many sets per muscle group .. blah blah blah.. has been pretty over whelming, as every article i read contradicts the article before (much like trying to get nutrition help off the web). So of coarse, I found myself experimenting over the last few months with lots of different modes using mainly dumbbells, and bodyweight stuff like push ups and pullups. I have read so many contradictory things on feeling the burn, or being super sore for a few days after a workout. The thing is feeling sore and feeling the burn has been a huge factor in not smoking. As long as i am feeling a little swollen after a work out it reminds me that i am making a little progress and i stay motivated not to smoke. After reading S&S 2.0 I really believe its best not to feel torn up days after a work out or even need to feel a burn during the work out other than a small % of the time as Pavel explains. After my first day of Timeless Simple i realize that i can still feel as though i had a great workout without being torn up or sore the next day, and is still enough to remind me that i am making some progress and don't need to smoke anymore.
So i found Simple and Sinister and finished the book in the last 2 days and I am really excited about it for these reasons:
- Takes an hour or less using the talk test.
- It is incredibly simple (hence the name) and i don't have to remember to do 15 different workouts in a session
- It is super fun
- I like the idea of not ripping myself apart and being able to do this workout everyday.
- It will no doubt improve my stamina, explosiveness and overall strength if i can stick with it and move up in KB sizes.
- I feel like my chest and biceps are untouched in this work out
- No modifications; so i cant throw in push ups or pull ups so i can feel a work out in my chest and biceps
- If my first two concerns are valid then i feel like it won't do much for my physique (I know its a little vein, but of coarse I want to make progress toward looking good, i dont care much about muscle size just want to be strong first -no pun intended - and look good)
- I don't want to go through 20 weeks of this and feel like i made no progress on physique. (I have seen some progress in my physique and muscle size in the last 2 months and would hate to be stagnate in these areas, psychologically speaking it is very good for me to feel progress in these areas, although muscle size is not as important to me)
I really want to do things right and i know the book says not to change the program or add anything to it, but i feel like i would be happier if i could throw in some push-ups or pull-ups every other day so i feel like i am making progress on my chest and biceps too.
Can anyone address my concerns with this program and tell me im wrong. Or point me in the direction of a StrongFirst Program that is almost as simple and will also feel like im working on my chest and biceps? Then maybe come back to this program after i have reached my modest size and physique goals. Any advice will help.
I deeply appreciate anyone who has read all the way through this and responds.
ChiBill
Level 6 Valued Member
Maybe try ETK? Might help more with building muscle.
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
what equipment do you have access to?
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Awesome! Thank you! And this is a StrongFirst program?
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Other than two 16kg bells, I have a pull-up bar, and dumbells. Thats it.
Pavel.Kosenkov
Level 5 Valued Member
Hey.
First - S&S book says "almost daily". So, if you choose to run it 3 times a week - that will also be fine. And in case you want something extra - use these days in between. Do chin-ups, and you will get some bicep. You might get some chest, if you will be doing partial tgu's, and pressing up without the assistance of the second hand.
But - if I were you I would try to get to 32kg or close first, and then tackle your bicep and chest issues.
Also, I would treat S&S as a book of full of good advises, not as a manual.
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Fair enough. I think i can be patient and get to 32s first. Thank you for the reply!
silveraw
Level 9 Valued Member
I'd get your swings down and try to move on to dry fighting weight as soon as you have a decent clean and press. Provided you are deadset on kettlebell only programing. “Dry Fighting Weight”: Fat Loss Through Strength | StrongFirst
S&S isn't going to put much meat on your bones unless you pair it with something else. You could do S&S and something like this: Dumbbell P/P/L (Proposed Alternative to Dumbbell Stopgap) | The Fitness Wiki
Ryan Johnson
Level 6 Valued Member
Just stick with S & S for awhile. At least by the book through the bell thats 30% of your bodyweight.
Do a curl or two with every goblet squat, Pavel mentions this in the book.
I added a noticable amount of muscle the summer I worked with the 24k. Enough that I did 5x20 swings after that to mitigate.
The other option / modification for adding pullups is to do them between sets of getups. Do them easy strength style, ten reps ish per session. 3x3, 5x2. 5or6 singles etc.
Do a curl or two with every goblet squat, Pavel mentions this in the book.
I added a noticable amount of muscle the summer I worked with the 24k. Enough that I did 5x20 swings after that to mitigate.
The other option / modification for adding pullups is to do them between sets of getups. Do them easy strength style, ten reps ish per session. 3x3, 5x2. 5or6 singles etc.
ChiBill
Level 6 Valued Member
Yes it's "Enter the kettlebell"
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Thanks. I just checked out the second link. The fitness Wiki. that is actually really similar to what i was doing prior to finding S&S. I actually didn't want to stop doing it because i feel like i a making progress with it. I like the way its laid out in that fitness wiki link. I think ill follow that along with S&S. Thank you so much!
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Found it. I just bought the book on kindle. thanks for the suggestion!
ChiBill
Level 6 Valued Member
Rite of passage (rop) in the book is a great single kettlebell program.
dunbar399
Level 1 Valued Member
Thanks Ryan! Are you saying you added all of that muscle just sticking with the S&S program and nothing else?
Ryan Johnson
Level 6 Valued Member
Well, I climb multiple days a week. So I was basically doing 3 of one two of the other every week for six ish months. I was doing the steps from 20 - 24k and staying at each step for a month instead of two weeks , as I wasn't doing s&s five days a week.
But yes, that was the major change and I put on greater than 10 lbs of muscle that summer. Granted a bunch was in the glutes /quads, but my t shirts definitely fit much differently.
All my climbing friends instantly commented when I saw them in the fall , and interestingly, I did probably my second hardest route that year (2021) close to 40 lbs heavier than I was in 2011 when I sent my first 514.
But yes, that was the major change and I put on greater than 10 lbs of muscle that summer. Granted a bunch was in the glutes /quads, but my t shirts definitely fit much differently.
All my climbing friends instantly commented when I saw them in the fall , and interestingly, I did probably my second hardest route that year (2021) close to 40 lbs heavier than I was in 2011 when I sent my first 514.
Adachi
Level 7 Valued Member
I'm not going to tell you what to set as a goal.
But if you're gonna try and balance these interests...
If I were you I'd look at picking an off day, once a week or so, to focus on your hypertrophy goals. Give your system one of those jolts.
You can do allot with what you've got.If you've got a couple sturdy wooden chairs you might be able to do dips, which could help with upper body mass.
Maybe take one day, set a timer for 20 minutes and do pushups in sets of 10 till you can't feel feelings. Then set your 20 minute timer again, and do pullups for ladders of 1,2,3 or 2,4,6, or 3,6,9 (depending on your abilities), till you can't feel feelings.
Or set a timer for 30 minutes and alternate the pushups and pullups. And if you can clean and front squat those 16 kg bells, for 3x3 and use triple progression to go up to 5x5, then that'll have an an effect.
With all that said, this is a bit much for my preferences.
I'd much prefer to follow through on S&S and save the mental ram for other things. The heavier and heavier getups will have their effects.
After getting up to simple weights, 32kg+ maybe look into hypertrophy via double kettlebell work, or barbell.
For me, getting up to simple in about 10 months, I think built a good base for me to continue on to other training. Including hypertrophy focused training.
But if you're gonna try and balance these interests...
Kinda, yeah
It's not the intention of this practice.
If you lean in the direction of shorter rests you can get some of that physique benefit
S&S 2.0 is like a recipe for a good main dish. Meat and potatoes, as it were. Doesn't mean there's no room for sides.
If I were you I'd look at picking an off day, once a week or so, to focus on your hypertrophy goals. Give your system one of those jolts.
You can do allot with what you've got.If you've got a couple sturdy wooden chairs you might be able to do dips, which could help with upper body mass.
Maybe take one day, set a timer for 20 minutes and do pushups in sets of 10 till you can't feel feelings. Then set your 20 minute timer again, and do pullups for ladders of 1,2,3 or 2,4,6, or 3,6,9 (depending on your abilities), till you can't feel feelings.
Or set a timer for 30 minutes and alternate the pushups and pullups. And if you can clean and front squat those 16 kg bells, for 3x3 and use triple progression to go up to 5x5, then that'll have an an effect.
With all that said, this is a bit much for my preferences.
I'd much prefer to follow through on S&S and save the mental ram for other things. The heavier and heavier getups will have their effects.
After getting up to simple weights, 32kg+ maybe look into hypertrophy via double kettlebell work, or barbell.
For me, getting up to simple in about 10 months, I think built a good base for me to continue on to other training. Including hypertrophy focused training.
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blad51
Level 8 Valued Member
This is wise advice.
I think that one should at least achieve Timeless Simple before moving on to other KB programs.
At the minimum, achieving Timeless Simple will give you both a solid foundation of strength and KB technique that will prepare you for any KB program you wish to pursue next.
BillSteamshovel
Level 6 Valued Member
That's fascinating ! Am curious and interested, I didn't realise I could be doing one program and reserve a day a week to do a hypertrophy program "on the side" ......
Might that be generally true for lots of other GPP or Cardio or Strength programs ? ie 3 days a week Cardio or GPP or Strength and one day Hypertrophy. Somehow I had the impresssion it was necessary to do Hypertophy to make the "tank" bigger then another program to fill the "tank" with strength. I'd realised that you always get a tiny bit of one with the other in any training, but thought the main focus had to be one or the other.
Any Strongfirst Articles/Threads/Websites to discuss further ? Will do some googling to see what I can find.
EDIT : Seems to be heaps of info on the web now just gotta find the good bits .... any advice appreciated
2nd EDIT : Strongfirts things some good discussion in first item in this search
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Halfakneecap
Level 6 Valued Member
Getups with a pause at each step helped me a lot going up in weight. 3-4 breaths in each stage.
I got 28’s on sale. Hugely beneficial imho. Last year on New Year’s Eve I did a few getups with my 28’s. Tough, but they went well. So, I tried the 32, thinking it wouldn’t end well. While it was tough, I managed one on each side. I was pretty amazed. Im sure the 28’s helped. 24-32 is much harder than 16-24 imho so the 28’s I’m sure helped. As well as paused reps. You’ll get it