Anth
Level 4 Valued Member
That's a good protocol. I like that. 2-6 times a week but more when I have time/energy takes some of the pressure off.
Simple & Sinister - General discussion
- Thread starter SUOMI-PUKU
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Adam R Mundorf
Level 6 Valued Member
Well, here's how I view it. If you're a desk jockey and can't train at least three to five times a week, there's probably something wrong like lack of sleep or nutrition. If you work in an active occupation like 15,000 steps a day, lifting, pulling loads and squatting then the frequency will just have to be lower and as energy/time allows. I mean it's worth noting, I had my best training when I experimented with early retirement a few years ago......imagine that.
Who compares, who cares? Do what you can with what you have and don't stress over it because the stress does more harm for your health than good.
BillSteamshovel
Level 6 Valued Member
Kettlebell - Get up grip...
Hi there I watched a really interesting vid around the grip when doing get ups from Fabio Zonin. I originally read about it on another thread. I’ve tried to paste it below. It seems to make loads of sense, but I wonder if anyone has any experience of moving to this. I’ve found that this...
www.strongfirst.com
I have started using the grip recommended by Fabio in this video. Seems to be helping me do better getups. Might be of use to other folk if you have not seen it previously. If its discussed in the book I totally missed or forgot it.
Crown and Anchor
Level 2 Valued Member
5-6 days a week is great if you’re under 40 and are able to sleep at least 8 hours per night. I am neither. I overtrained myself into oblivion and ended up quitting three or four times in the last three years.
I think Pavel at least implied that it’s OK to fall short of the 5-6 days standard, because he outright says in the book that you can and should reduce the frequency of your training sessions when your life makes it impossible to recover quickly. You just need to accept that you’ll be progressing slower than the book prescribes.
I kept up with my S&S practice with 20 and 24 kilo bells during a month-long road trip earlier this year. I only managed to do it 1-2 times a week for that month but I got stronger.
I’ve stopped focusing on sessions per week and now set my step loading goals based on total volume. The book says 5-6 times per week for 4 weeks. That’s 20-24 sessions over the course of 4 weeks. Now I count total sessions instead of sessions per week and when I hit 20-24 sessions at a given weight/rep combo, I move to the next one.
Anth
Level 4 Valued Member
I could've written this word-for-word. My particular brand of over training is to get to the 32 too fast then to feel constantly beat up. There was a time when I felt comfortable with timeless simple 32k, but I moved on to something else too aggressively and got burned out.
Despite the fact that I can currently complete timeless simple (I could maybe even complete timeless solid, though I'd probably feel like I got hit by a truck), I am currently sticking with the 20k. I can slowly feel my body getting better (when I get out of bed or out of a chair or car, for example). Originally, I was going to do the 2-week progression from the 20 to the 24 and the 4-week from the 24 to the 32, but maybe 20 sessions is a better protocol.
Adam R Mundorf
Level 6 Valued Member
This is my thought process as well. It's also like if you're not having time to fit in an S&S session you're probably living a somewhat active life already, that doesn't count for nothing.
I used to view it with total number of sessions as well but he does mention calendar month specifically in the book.
Crown and Anchor
Level 2 Valued Member
Yeah this is the key right here. Pick some small action you have to perform every day and pay attention to how well you’re able to do it. The front door to my office building is heavy as hell. I used to have to lean back and twist slightly to open it. After I got to the point of owning the 24, I could open it with just one arm. I also make a point of using just my core and hips (look ma, no hands) to stand up from a chair or couch, and that keeps getting easier and more explosive. Little things like that become huge sources of motivation when you do them mindfully.
Anth
Level 4 Valued Member
Yes! For me, standing up from a chair on one leg is the thing.
musicsherlock
Level 6 Valued Member
So, I’m sure the VO2 max data in Apple Health is probably not accurate but since restarting S&S after over a year it has increased by nearly 3 points. Coincidence?
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
My two cents:
I started S&S in the spring of 2015. I have had some on and off periods, but I have been at it most of the past 9 years.
The exact S&S programme is for efficiency. If you follow it closely you will progress faster and easier than otherwise, I have to assume, as it is based on science, which is not just technology but human testing with trial and error. Whether it is exactly sets of 10 as opposed to 12 or 8 I am sure does not make a huge difference. Whether it is 100 total swings or just 80 or 120, also I doubt this really matters much. Same with TGUs. Also, I doubt the exact weight matters much. The 32kg is a nice standard that I assume is sort of tied to the idea of the typically sized adult male. It is also a kind of maximum ''possible'' for the typical layman (I assume as well). I seem to find myself doing S&S a whole lot with just the 24kg, and it is just fine. Full power swings, long TGUs, everyone is happy, including me!
I think Steve Friedes said it well a long time ago when I did not really understand this stuff much when he said that the swing is 80% of it and the TGU just 20% of it. This is something I eventually really took to heart. It is maybe a sad truth that to get that 20% you have to work a lot harder and longer than for the 80%, hehe. But just because something (like the TGU) _feels_ like you are getting a better workout does not mean that this is scientifically true. The 1 handed swings activate more of your muscles by far than the TGU (as I understand it), even though the swings are really easy to do!
For the crazy fighting sport of judo it is the two handed swings that seemed to have the best carryover. You need full body power for judo, so this must be why. But, for developing your muscles, the 1h swings are a lot better. So, I definitely privilege the 1h swings. Life is not just judo. The 1h swings are still good for judo but are not as good as 2h swings if your goal is only to win at judo.
After 9 years of S&S: I am not as strong as serious barbell lifters my size or larger that I know. These guys deadlift like 600+ pounds. I cannot do this. I can deadlift 150% my own bodyweight easily from S&S, and I have inched this amount up with some dedicated training at a few points in the past 9 years, but I am not a barbell lifter, I am a kettlebeller. Grappling with these guys, again they are definitely stronger, but I am not a pushover, which I think is a testament to S&S's effectiveness. However, I am talking about really good barbell lifters. Comparing me to just about anyone else, I think I am a whole lot stronger or at least no weaker, and ALL of these guys lift weights seriously in some form or other.
S&S also seemed to make it easy to learn to do the 1h pushup.
So, where am I now with S&S? Well, today I did the whole S&S routine with the 24kg. Yesterday it was mainly with the 28kg. Two days ago it was with a mix of these and the 32kg. I do sets of 2h swings too when I feel like it with the 32kg or 40kg. I definitely privilege the 1h swings over the 2h swings and the TGUs. I GTG the 1h swings a lot as they are easy to do and take little time. The TGUs are more time intensive and awkward, so less good for GTG.
In any case, my thoughts are that the key thing is the 1h swings and I will do as many as I want, often a lot more than just 100 a day. I do the TGUs as often as I can, but I am not too worried about them provided that I do some kind of pushing, which I always do in the form of presses and dips. The TGU seems better than these by far, but again we are talking about only 20% whereas the swings are 80%, so if I am only getting like 10% instead of 20%, the final mark is still 90%, which is good enough!
1h swings rule.
I started S&S in the spring of 2015. I have had some on and off periods, but I have been at it most of the past 9 years.
The exact S&S programme is for efficiency. If you follow it closely you will progress faster and easier than otherwise, I have to assume, as it is based on science, which is not just technology but human testing with trial and error. Whether it is exactly sets of 10 as opposed to 12 or 8 I am sure does not make a huge difference. Whether it is 100 total swings or just 80 or 120, also I doubt this really matters much. Same with TGUs. Also, I doubt the exact weight matters much. The 32kg is a nice standard that I assume is sort of tied to the idea of the typically sized adult male. It is also a kind of maximum ''possible'' for the typical layman (I assume as well). I seem to find myself doing S&S a whole lot with just the 24kg, and it is just fine. Full power swings, long TGUs, everyone is happy, including me!
I think Steve Friedes said it well a long time ago when I did not really understand this stuff much when he said that the swing is 80% of it and the TGU just 20% of it. This is something I eventually really took to heart. It is maybe a sad truth that to get that 20% you have to work a lot harder and longer than for the 80%, hehe. But just because something (like the TGU) _feels_ like you are getting a better workout does not mean that this is scientifically true. The 1 handed swings activate more of your muscles by far than the TGU (as I understand it), even though the swings are really easy to do!
For the crazy fighting sport of judo it is the two handed swings that seemed to have the best carryover. You need full body power for judo, so this must be why. But, for developing your muscles, the 1h swings are a lot better. So, I definitely privilege the 1h swings. Life is not just judo. The 1h swings are still good for judo but are not as good as 2h swings if your goal is only to win at judo.
After 9 years of S&S: I am not as strong as serious barbell lifters my size or larger that I know. These guys deadlift like 600+ pounds. I cannot do this. I can deadlift 150% my own bodyweight easily from S&S, and I have inched this amount up with some dedicated training at a few points in the past 9 years, but I am not a barbell lifter, I am a kettlebeller. Grappling with these guys, again they are definitely stronger, but I am not a pushover, which I think is a testament to S&S's effectiveness. However, I am talking about really good barbell lifters. Comparing me to just about anyone else, I think I am a whole lot stronger or at least no weaker, and ALL of these guys lift weights seriously in some form or other.
S&S also seemed to make it easy to learn to do the 1h pushup.
So, where am I now with S&S? Well, today I did the whole S&S routine with the 24kg. Yesterday it was mainly with the 28kg. Two days ago it was with a mix of these and the 32kg. I do sets of 2h swings too when I feel like it with the 32kg or 40kg. I definitely privilege the 1h swings over the 2h swings and the TGUs. I GTG the 1h swings a lot as they are easy to do and take little time. The TGUs are more time intensive and awkward, so less good for GTG.
In any case, my thoughts are that the key thing is the 1h swings and I will do as many as I want, often a lot more than just 100 a day. I do the TGUs as often as I can, but I am not too worried about them provided that I do some kind of pushing, which I always do in the form of presses and dips. The TGU seems better than these by far, but again we are talking about only 20% whereas the swings are 80%, so if I am only getting like 10% instead of 20%, the final mark is still 90%, which is good enough!
1h swings rule.
Ege
Level 6 Valued Member
I would find it totally unbelievable if some one told me that a Swing (which basically a “pull for upper body IMHO) would help a push, one arm push up in this case, just a few days ago.
I did not do a chin-up for a very long time and I have n’t done many upper body pull moves for a long time, I was mostly crawling recently. Yesterday when I had tested My chin-ups , I saw that they have almost stay the same…. Weird…I guess…
wg028366
First Post
I have been doing S&S for about 2 months now accompanied with steel mace and mountain biking. I have been very happy with the results. Above all things, I am starting to feel athletic again (mobile, strong, conditioned) which I haven't really felt much of in the last 5 years.
Has anyone else tried S&S supplemented with mace training? I do feel like they compliment each other quite well. I am able to do 10 minutes of continuous mace in the morning, then during the afternoon I do S&S. Thus far I do not feel like it has required me to rest more-- I am doing both 5-6 days a week. Currently, owning the 24kg bell, probably will move to the 28 at my gym next week instead of jumping straight to 32. The smaller jumps have worked pretty well for me thus far.
Right now I am eating to put on some muscle, which I definitely have. I have gone from around 172 up to 180--obviously some fat in here too. Probably my other biggest question reading all these forums...has anyone ever tried actually "bulking" during S&S? See lots of great strength (not so much muscle) gain and weight loss stories written. Also see lots of people who hit plateaus at 32kg or even earlier. My guess is the easiest way to bash through that plateau is to bulk up. I am going to keep experimenting with a surplus diet to see what kind of muscle I can add and how soon I plateau.
Has anyone else tried S&S supplemented with mace training? I do feel like they compliment each other quite well. I am able to do 10 minutes of continuous mace in the morning, then during the afternoon I do S&S. Thus far I do not feel like it has required me to rest more-- I am doing both 5-6 days a week. Currently, owning the 24kg bell, probably will move to the 28 at my gym next week instead of jumping straight to 32. The smaller jumps have worked pretty well for me thus far.
Right now I am eating to put on some muscle, which I definitely have. I have gone from around 172 up to 180--obviously some fat in here too. Probably my other biggest question reading all these forums...has anyone ever tried actually "bulking" during S&S? See lots of great strength (not so much muscle) gain and weight loss stories written. Also see lots of people who hit plateaus at 32kg or even earlier. My guess is the easiest way to bash through that plateau is to bulk up. I am going to keep experimenting with a surplus diet to see what kind of muscle I can add and how soon I plateau.
I include mace and club swinging in my routine alongside S&S. I don’t find mace work to require much recovery but I only have a 5kg mace. I would expect 1H 360s and heavier work to be more taxing. I often do club mills for warm up and/or cool-down.
I’ve done the 4kg jumps and it’s worked well. Working in the 32kg has been noticeably harder and I’ve dropped the frequency accordingly.
S&S is never going to be great for bulking. I also don’t think gaining weight will help push through plateaus. I would suggest plateaus are more likely related to technique. You can’t progress past a certain point if your technique isn’t up to scratch. Lightweight guys like Pavel Macek have hit sinister so weight shouldn’t be an obstacle.
Kozushi
Level 7 Valued Member
I have a few different maces. I have trained with them alongside S&S in the past. I think they are additional proof, not that we need any, that really any kind of resistance exercise is good for you provided it is safe and develops your body in a balanced and not lopsided way. Being a grappler since the age of 11 what I felt the maces were giving me was a very nice resistance challenge to my balance, which is excellent for grappling. You learn where to shift your balance, to shift your weight, strongly in order to keep your balance in a grappling match. Because the maces use a different movement pattern than the kettlebell, they are definitely an excellent supplement or alternative.
To me both kettlebells and maces are not really about getting stronger in the traditional sense of bigger and bigger muscles, but are more about lessons and reminders to the subconscious in the body about how to recruit your strength in a coordinated way. Muscles and tendons are involved, sure, but I think it is mainly about your body working in a coordinated way so that you do not lose your balance and so that you keep hold of the weight! And, I think this is where lies their real power. It is the skill of strength, not just strength itself in the physical sense. Thus, you can be way stronger than you actually are, which is a delicious irony!
It seems more that it is once you pass Simple that you are getting into the real physical, muscular strength development. Simple is really (with a wee bit of exaggeration of course) just when you have taught your body to work properly with itself.
To me both kettlebells and maces are not really about getting stronger in the traditional sense of bigger and bigger muscles, but are more about lessons and reminders to the subconscious in the body about how to recruit your strength in a coordinated way. Muscles and tendons are involved, sure, but I think it is mainly about your body working in a coordinated way so that you do not lose your balance and so that you keep hold of the weight! And, I think this is where lies their real power. It is the skill of strength, not just strength itself in the physical sense. Thus, you can be way stronger than you actually are, which is a delicious irony!
It seems more that it is once you pass Simple that you are getting into the real physical, muscular strength development. Simple is really (with a wee bit of exaggeration of course) just when you have taught your body to work properly with itself.
wg028366
First Post
Thank you and @Symanoy for responses. They make sense to me. I train mostly 2-handed with a 20 pound mace and 1-handed with a 10 pound mace. The 20 really tests me in a lot of ways. I really agree with the balance point from both the KB and mace. My body just feels much more together and grounded than it was.
I completely agree that getting to Simple is a lot of technique and any man should be able to achieve it with consistency and some grit. I also understand lighter people can reach sinister...just like in powerlifting...a 150 pound man can pull a 500 pound DL. However, a 200 pound man will probably have an easier time getting there if technique is the same. It is much more impressive from a strength perspective for the 150 pound man.
I've read a lot of people say after simple they moved on to something else. I would really like to push through to sinister...but perhaps switching to barbells or even another KB program for a few months, then resuming S&S, will fill in some strength gaps my current regimen is missing. I could see that helping in the long run. I know that has been suggested on this forum already.
BillSteamshovel
Level 6 Valued Member
Couple of random observations
Transitioning from 20 to 24 and feeling slight soreness in front of thighs the next day - seems to be manageable and dissapears during the day.
I only felt that I "owned" a 16kg TGU after I had been doing 20kg for a few weeks and dropped back to have an easy day, similarly now that I've started doing some 24s the 20 suddenly seems a lot easier.
Rotating the vertical arm holding the kettlebell seems to help me find a "sweet spot" where the hip hinge on the way down becomes a lot easier maybe because the weight gets closer aligned with my centre of gravity or maybe aligned with the knee on the ground ?
28 not so scary any more, can do partial getups but the 32 seems to be absolutely massive and brain just says "dont even think about it"
Transitioning from 20 to 24 and feeling slight soreness in front of thighs the next day - seems to be manageable and dissapears during the day.
I only felt that I "owned" a 16kg TGU after I had been doing 20kg for a few weeks and dropped back to have an easy day, similarly now that I've started doing some 24s the 20 suddenly seems a lot easier.
Rotating the vertical arm holding the kettlebell seems to help me find a "sweet spot" where the hip hinge on the way down becomes a lot easier maybe because the weight gets closer aligned with my centre of gravity or maybe aligned with the knee on the ground ?
28 not so scary any more, can do partial getups but the 32 seems to be absolutely massive and brain just says "dont even think about it"
Cody Long
Level 2 Valued Member
Thanks to all for posting your stories here.
I am excited to embark on my S&S journey with a goal of attaining Simple by my 50th birthday (Sept. 2024). I purchased my KBs after attending a one-day Strong First KB workshop with Mark Snow in May 2016. I was swinging and practicing TGUs but without a plan to attain any specific goals. Eventually, my KBs started to gather dust as I found myself distracted by work, life, and family loss. But now, after reading S&S 2.0 and spending time in the SF Forum, I'm ready for my journey to begin again.
I'm 49, 5'11'', and 86 kg, with a boring desk job. I'm in decent shape, have no history of injury, and enjoy walks with my wife and dogs. I don't want to grow old and weak so here I am.
I'm starting with the 16kg for both swings and get-ups, splitting my training by swinging on my lunch hour and practicing get-ups when I get home in the evening. I spent 1-2 weeks crunching both movements into my lunch hour but felt rushed in my movements and I do not want this to be rushed. I'm taking the long-view, trying to stay humble, and making this a journey towards a stronger future. I'm taking care of tightness and sore muscles with self-massage and MFR techniques. I've created a plan of progression using the S&S 2.0 step-loading chart. I know my goal and my sights are set.
I am excited to embark on my S&S journey with a goal of attaining Simple by my 50th birthday (Sept. 2024). I purchased my KBs after attending a one-day Strong First KB workshop with Mark Snow in May 2016. I was swinging and practicing TGUs but without a plan to attain any specific goals. Eventually, my KBs started to gather dust as I found myself distracted by work, life, and family loss. But now, after reading S&S 2.0 and spending time in the SF Forum, I'm ready for my journey to begin again.
I'm 49, 5'11'', and 86 kg, with a boring desk job. I'm in decent shape, have no history of injury, and enjoy walks with my wife and dogs. I don't want to grow old and weak so here I am.
I'm starting with the 16kg for both swings and get-ups, splitting my training by swinging on my lunch hour and practicing get-ups when I get home in the evening. I spent 1-2 weeks crunching both movements into my lunch hour but felt rushed in my movements and I do not want this to be rushed. I'm taking the long-view, trying to stay humble, and making this a journey towards a stronger future. I'm taking care of tightness and sore muscles with self-massage and MFR techniques. I've created a plan of progression using the S&S 2.0 step-loading chart. I know my goal and my sights are set.
BillSteamshovel
Level 6 Valued Member
AM keen to better understand what overtraining or burnt out feels like
For a few days recently I was feeling completely and totally exhausted and barely did anything at all , maybe pulled a few weeds in the garden and some deadbugs that was it. I didn't have any sore muscles or joints but was sleeping poorly.
Is that what overtraining or burnout is or is it different things for different people ?
I wouldn't consider muscle soreness as the best indicator of overtraining. If you have some kind of smart watch/HR monitor looking at resting heart rate and heart rate variability alongside sleep tracking can give some good indicators regarding recovery. Also consider other life and stress factors which all contribute to recovery too.
General fatigue, lethargy, feeling of weakness etc could be signs of overtraining but could also be illness or something else? Just have to listen to your body and know your signals.
S&S shouldn't be too taxing, consider dropping the frequency if its proving too much to recover from. How do the sessions themselves feel?
Some active recovery may also help you. Plenty of walking, some breath work, gentle stretching, sauna/steam room if available or a hot bath with Epsom salts.