Simple & Sinister - General discussion

[SUOMI-PUKU]

IIRC Pavel stopped recommending the prying cobra stretch as it was encouraging over-extension at the top of the swing in people.

If you’re not prone to that then I bet it would work just fine/better using those two movements separately instead of the hip bridge.

 

[james_1127]

Sounds like a good plan. Even if you "break even" one week, I'm sure the following weeks it will grow easier again as long as you stay consistent.
I was fast tracking toward untimed simple last October and then a series of unfortunate disruptions to my routine and setbacks hindered me. In hindsight too, I think I was trying to progress too quickly in jumping weights.
I didn't start from scratch, but picked back up again in February and experimented enough to figure out where I was overdoing it and sort through my SI joint issues. Once I quit chasing the weight numbers everything else has mostly fallen into place.

I'm quite content to just slowly build up to timed Simple even if it takes another two years. I have plenty to work on with the bells I have. This week I've been doing my halos with the 24KG, for instance...but perhaps next week I'll go back to 16KG. But I could see six months from now having an interest in doing 32KG halos.
I also infrequently do goblet squats with the 32KG. Eventually when those become easy maybe I'll change it up and do offset doubles or work on split squats in a couple of years or even cossacks! A 32KG cossack would be nothing to snicker at either.

I figure I'll be pretty well rounded if in a couple years by the time I hit fifty I can do all of the big six movements with nothing but the 32KG. Sort of a "Victor" type mentality (from Easy Strength...I believe he used nothing but his 24KG bell and a couple of clubs for quite a few years). I also keep Pavel's "The Cost of Adaptation" ever in the back of my mind. For me it's about overall general health and fitness, not "the gainz", or how strong can I get, or setting any kind of PR's.

And S&S is not some sort of weird religious order like a Tibetan monastery with ascetic mystical religious rites and the flowing robes. Sometimes I got to mix it up. So I occasionally I might throw in several rounds of Iron Cardio, or Dan John's ABC one day out of the week to break up the monotony.
Or intersperse some GtG body movements like working on my OA pushups, or pullups, just to keep things interesting. One reason I'll also do reverse TGU's. But I'm still keeping S&S as my primary focus, it's been good to me. I learned to stop worrying about the numbers and love the movement, and I think that's the key.

I'm fully convinced that S&S paired with IC is the ultimate GPP program... 3 days a week of each one might be all the training the majority of ppl need

 

[Simon L]

I have noticed that doing RLD with a kettlebell instead of the glute-ham bridge allows me to warm up my lower back better, practice my hinge depth, lat control, and allows me to work on my glutes contaction better. I stretch my hip flexors separetely, doing prying cobra.
I am going to drop hip bridge and do RDLs and deadlifts.
What is your experience with the hip bridge in the warmup? Do you guys feel it is worth it?

I think it depends on how tight you are in the hips. I switched to 1 leg bridges for a bit which are a great exercise. I’ve recently switched to 1 armed deadlifts to prep the standing plank and grease the hinge.

 

[lais817]

I've read before from @Anna C that she found great benefit from the hip bridge, from memory it lead to better lockout for her. Personally, it's a good way for me to see how stiff and tight I am before the session, and to see how hard I want to take it.

 

[Cyrus-II]

I've read before from @Anna C that she found great benefit from the hip bridge, from memory it lead to better lockout for her. Personally, it's a good way for me to see how stiff and tight I am before the session, and to see how hard I want to take it.

Same. Goblet squats “cost”almost nothing energy-wise, so I almost always do them.

Bridge and goblet squats are when I’m evaluating how I feel and how heavy I’ll go that day. Pre-flight systems check before the kettlebell goes airborne…

 

[Anna C]

I've read before from @Anna C that she found great benefit from the hip bridge, from memory it lead to better lockout for her. Personally, it's a good way for me to see how stiff and tight I am before the session, and to see how hard I want to take it.

Yes, I would recommend doing them, for both the glute activation/warm-up and the hip flexor stretch - both together seems to open the hips. Many people stop short of full hip extension in their swings. You don't know it if you don't ever really get the hips open.

These days I can test to see if I need it or not with a get-up. Usually for my first one, unweighted or light weight, I do the high hip bridge.



If I have a hard time getting there, I know I need more hip flexor stretches to get going.

I can also tell when I get to the lunge. If the front of the hip feels tight (left leg, in this pic), I dwell there for 10-20 seconds and feel the full hip extension. Sometimes that is all I need.

 

[mvikred]

It's funny though. I'm beginning to understand the old school mentality of "milking" a given weight for all it's worth. Start with a weight that's "heavy" for you, do what you can with it. As the weight becomes easier the focus with it changes more to a conditioning. Making the movement more complex, increasing reps per set, decreasing rest time between sets. I think there is an important "cardio" conditioning and strengthening of bone structure and connective tissues by following this pattern.
It's alluded to in S&S, but many seem to gloss it because they are chasing weight numbers, and try to rush to the end. I'm finding contentment in just following the program, experimenting here and there, but sticking to getting in at least 2-3 solid sessions per week of S&S and going by how I feel has been key for me.

This my friend is a realization gained with experience. Sometimes after going through a bit of a rough patch with injuries. I experienced this with pressing but I did rush through the RoP to hit some PR numbers. Somewhere along the way my body created imbalances and that resulted in an injury. Now I am back to pressing smaller weights and rehabbing my shoulder. But now the aim is not some number but to focus on the movement quality. Also I plan to run the original RoP which takes much longer than the variations. Because it takes so long, there is ample opportunity for the tendons and ligaments to catch up. The same with S&S I suppose.

 

[mvikred]

Inspired by all the posts here, I am revisiting the S&S journey but with lower frequency than what is recommended.

I write about it here >>> Revisiting S&S

 

[BillSteamshovel]

Hello - Joining this thread - back after a long break - started again with 12kg now doing 16kg timed and pondering how long to stay with 16kg before next jump - gotta read the book again regarding bringing in the 24kg and will read this thread for recent relevant advice.

On my first try at S&S I was concerned about doing TGUs greater than my press - vanished down a rabbit hole full of bright shiny object pressing programs and thoroughly enjoyed that but then realised the presses and bodyweight stuff had completely displaced the original idea to one day achieve simple so back for a second try.

I've seen mention of the BJJ SFKB program in earlier posts, I bought it a while back but only read through it a couple of times and tested what weights to start with. Are many people using that instead of the original S&S nowadays ?

 

[Adachi]

how long to stay with 16kg before next jump

4 weeks or a month.

I was concerned about doing TGUs greater than my press

I added in presses to help my shoulder get stronger during the getup. It helped me continue with my S&S training at the time.

 

[SUOMI-PUKU]

For me the flexibility of S&S beats any advantage that you get from the 3-day structure of KBSF beginner program.

What are you currently doing with the 16 - 1HS 10x10 and 10 get ups? If so then follow the progression outlined in the book - step load every 4 weeks (or month).

 

[Crown and Anchor]

Has anyone noticed any hypertrophy effect from doing S&S ?

I think that is going to depend on where you are starting from.

If you are skinny, expect some hypertrophy but not too much since that is not what the program is designed to do.

If you are fat, expect the same thing, except it will not be visible until your fat loss catches up to your strength gains.

I am 6'4" and weighed about 290 before I started S&S. Most of that was fat from skipping the gym, eating takeout, drinking too much and poor sleep habits (I was going through a stressful phase of my career), but I had some core muscle mass left under all of that because I have a background in powerlifting and crossfit. Now that I've been running S&S steadily for about ten months, my body weight has dropped to just under 250 and has basically hovered there for the last few months while I continue to notice gradual progress in my body composition, and some added mass in my glutes and shoulders.

 

[TomP30]

Stats:
Age 48
Weight 80.5kg
Height 5’8

I’m just getting refocused on S&S after switching to Pat Flynn’s Get Strong programme for a month or so. I started on kettlebells and S&S a little over a year ago; I was in poor condition but began with the 16kg. Seeing results early I pushed myself harder, and got to the 24kg for both OAS and TGU in about 5 months, I hit Timeless Simple after 10 months, and did this regularly for about a month, each Timeless session taking me an average of 25 minutes. I had advanced too quickly however; my Achilles heel was always the TGU on my left side, it wasn’t keeping up with my right and as a result my sets started to falter, and I got more frustrated. I tried deloading but felt the 24kg was too light. So last June, after a particularly bad session I decided to lessen the focus on S&S for a while and began the Get Strong program with double kettlebell exercises; Clean and Push Press, Clean and Squat and chin-ups. I kept S&S for weekends. Recently however I invested in a 28kg and began S&S again, this has really improved my left TGU and I’m already feeling stronger and more confident, I know it’s not the classic progression but I think I’d developed such a tic with my left getup that I needed to do something to break the barrier. I’m now back to enjoying my S&S journey and Get Strong is becoming my weekend program. I’ll keep using it as I do enjoy it.

 

[Anth]

I have another question regarding my post-Timeless-Simple practice. I am currently working with the 40 and 32. The 40 is very challenging for 1h swings, but not so much for 2h swings and TGU's (sometimes it even feels good). What about doing more heavy sets with 2 hands than I do with 1 hand. Say, once a week I do 5-8 sets with 2 hands, but I'm still only doing 2-4 sets with 1 hand. Has anyone used this progression method?

I went back and read the book, and it offered some ideas, but I also got the feeling that post-simple, it's a good idea to listen to your body and there are more options than just what Pavel lays out specifically.

TLDR: Anyone have sucess using a heavier bell for 2h swings and TGU's only?

 

[Adachi]

The 40 is very challenging for 1h swings, but not so much for 2h swings and TGU's (sometimes it even feels good).

So, the grip centric change in my swing practice that worked for me was rest pause sets.
Started out with 5+5(arbitrary starting point), then 6+4, then 8+2, then 10 reps.

• 5 swings .
• Park.
• Don't stand up.
• Count to 3.
• 5 more swings.

Now, my 40kg 1 hand swing isn't up to par for 10x10, but it is up to par for a set of 10.

What about doing more heavy sets with 2 hands than I do with 1 hand. Say, once a week I do 5-8 sets with 2 hands, but I'm still only doing 2-4 sets with 1 hand. Has anyone used this progression method?

I haven't used that exactly but you should always feel free to fall back on the 2 hand swing as often as needed.

As much as you practice 1 hand swings and don't overload your adaptive capacity, it will improve.

Grip is very demanding. Let it adapt as it does and follow along with it. Driving it hard may lead to hitting a wall anyhow.

 

[Simon L]

I have another question regarding my post-Timeless-Simple practice. I am currently working with the 40 and 32. The 40 is very challenging for 1h swings, but not so much for 2h swings and TGU's (sometimes it even feels good). What about doing more heavy sets with 2 hands than I do with 1 hand. Say, once a week I do 5-8 sets with 2 hands, but I'm still only doing 2-4 sets with 1 hand. Has anyone used this progression method?

I went back and read the book, and it offered some ideas, but I also got the feeling that post-simple, it's a good idea to listen to your body and there are more options than just what Pavel lays out specifically.

TLDR: Anyone have sucess using a heavier bell for 2h swings and TGU's only?

I’ve been using 4kg jumps and fairly early on, on advice of my SFG upped the 2H weight but 4kg. So currently adding in the 32kg for 1H swings and get ups and the 36kg for 2H swings. This has worked well for me.

 

[BillSteamshovel]

In the S&S book the idea of the smaller 4kg step is mentioned and given tacit approval.

"As for the weight increases, some students may be uncomfortable with our preferred large jumps in the get-up—4kg for ladies and 8kg for gentlemen. Get extra bells and jump half as high, 2kg and 4kg, respectively. Accordingly, shorten the steps from four to two weeks." (from "Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition" by Pavel Tsatsouline)

On the other hand we have "Die but DO" and this article 6 Reasons for the Leaps Between Kettlebell Sizes | StrongFirst

Have done two days with 24kg getups and they are quite tough compared to 16kg. Took a rest day today will see how I feel tomorrow.

What did you do for your first step change - the full increment or a half increment ?

 

[BillSteamshovel]

Found these articles whilst pondering step sizes - might be of interest to other folk.

The 3 Cs of Kettlebell Ownership | StrongFirst

Understanding what exactly is meant by "kettlebell ownership" will assist in your journey toward greater strength — and bigger bells.

www.strongfirst.com

How to Properly Program the Get-up for 3 Different Goals | StrongFirst

Depending on your goals, the get-up can be implemented differently. Here are 3 ways to program the get-up: for skill development, strength or movement prep.

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Simon L]

In the S&S book the idea of the smaller 4kg step is mentioned and given tacit approval.

"As for the weight increases, some students may be uncomfortable with our preferred large jumps in the get-up—4kg for ladies and 8kg for gentlemen. Get extra bells and jump half as high, 2kg and 4kg, respectively. Accordingly, shorten the steps from four to two weeks." (from "Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition" by Pavel Tsatsouline)

On the other hand we have "Die but DO" and this article 6 Reasons for the Leaps Between Kettlebell Sizes | StrongFirst

Have done two days with 24kg getups and they are quite tough compared to 16kg. Took a rest day today will see how I feel tomorrow.

What did you do for your first step change - the full increment or a half increment ?

I’ve been doing 4kg jumps with both lifts and am on week 2 of the step to 32kg. Been incredibly consistent and reliable for me. Should hit timeless simple after 40 weeks of practice.

 

[blad51]

In the S&S book the idea of the smaller 4kg step is mentioned and given tacit approval.

"As for the weight increases, some students may be uncomfortable with our preferred large jumps in the get-up—4kg for ladies and 8kg for gentlemen. Get extra bells and jump half as high, 2kg and 4kg, respectively. Accordingly, shorten the steps from four to two weeks." (from "Kettlebell Simple & Sinister: Revised and Updated Edition" by Pavel Tsatsouline)

On the other hand we have "Die but DO" and this article 6 Reasons for the Leaps Between Kettlebell Sizes | StrongFirst

Have done two days with 24kg getups and they are quite tough compared to 16kg. Took a rest day today will see how I feel tomorrow.

What did you do for your first step change - the full increment or a half increment ?

I have always progressed in 4kg increments. I am over 50. I do what is best for me. There are no medals to win here.

Progress your bells in the fashion your body feels best. S&S is supposed to make you feel good.