Simple & Sinister - General discussion

[Anth]

Overtraining for me tends to manifest itself in my nagging injuries and general, daily pains and weakness. If I can stand up from a chair on one leg or get out of my car athletically, then my training is well calibrated. If my knees creak and my back is sore when I get out of my car, overtrained.

 

[james_1127]

After an extensive run this year with AXE (KBSF SWING PROTOCOL) & Q&D I am officially back to S&S! I'm doing the BWAS al Ciampa test

SFG snatch (I'm replacing it with timed simple)
9mi run in 90min
12mi ruck under 3hrs

So I've decided to run S&S wave progression from this article to prep for the timed simple test portion

Did my 1st break-in session tonight of light intensity/light volume mixing the 28kg & 32kg (I've changed the weights slightly to my needs)

Surfing the Waves to Timeless Sinister | StrongFirst

“Each time [the waves] fall, they never fail to rise again.”—Josh BillingsYou earned the stripes of “Timed Simple.” You took the time and mastered the weights between Simple and Sinister (40kg for gents both in the swing and the get-up, 28kg in the swing and 20kg in the get-up for the ladies)...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[james_1127]

2nd S&S session... Med volume/Med load

10/10 @32kg with sets 5&6 with 36kg

Definitely can feel the increase in reps lol

We're expecting some cold & wet weather the next 2 days so next session will probably be Tues

 

[djm]

AM keen to better understand what overtraining or burnt out feels like

For a few days recently I was feeling completely and totally exhausted and barely did anything at all , maybe pulled a few weeds in the garden and some deadbugs that was it. I didn't have any sore muscles or joints but was sleeping poorly.

Is that what overtraining or burnout is or is it different things for different people feels like the flu

For me it was kinda like the flu with no fever and poor sleeping.

 

[james_1127]

@Pavel Macek would you still recommend every 3rd session or so performing the swings 2H like in the S&S original program? From your "surf the wave" article? Just started running this 4x a week with 1 session being 2HSW... Thanks!

Surfing the Waves to Timeless Sinister | StrongFirst

“Each time [the waves] fall, they never fail to rise again.”—Josh BillingsYou earned the stripes of “Timed Simple.” You took the time and mastered the weights between Simple and Sinister (40kg for gents both in the swing and the get-up, 28kg in the swing and 20kg in the get-up for the ladies)...

www.strongfirst.com

 

[Pavel Macek]

@Pavel Macek would you still recommend every 3rd session or so performing the swings 2H like in the S&S original program? From your "surf the wave" article? Just started running this 4x a week with 1 session being 2HSW... Thanks!

Surfing the Waves to Timeless Sinister | StrongFirst

“Each time [the waves] fall, they never fail to rise again.”—Josh BillingsYou earned the stripes of “Timed Simple.” You took the time and mastered the weights between Simple and Sinister (40kg for gents both in the swing and the get-up, 28kg in the swing and 20kg in the get-up for the ladies)...

www.strongfirst.com

According my experience, it is nice active deload.

 

[Cyrus-II]

5-6 days a week is great if you’re under 40 and are able to sleep at least 8 hours per night. I am neither. I overtrained myself into oblivion and ended up quitting three or four times in the last three years.

I think Pavel at least implied that it’s OK to fall short of the 5-6 days standard, because he outright says in the book that you can and should reduce the frequency of your training sessions when your life makes it impossible to recover quickly. You just need to accept that you’ll be progressing slower than the book prescribes.

I kept up with my S&S practice with 20 and 24 kilo bells during a month-long road trip earlier this year. I only managed to do it 1-2 times a week for that month but I got stronger.

I’ve stopped focusing on sessions per week and now set my step loading goals based on total volume. The book says 5-6 times per week for 4 weeks. That’s 20-24 sessions over the course of 4 weeks. Now I count total sessions instead of sessions per week and when I hit 20-24 sessions at a given weight/rep combo, I move to the next one.

I have been testing this hypothesis and I think you're really on to something by calculating off of number of sessions for step loading rather than weeks. That's assuming one still is doing 2 weekly sessions. I've been through two months now where due to work and travel schedule I've had almost no time to train. It seems like just one session a week might be enough to maintain, long term. Two training sessions a week might be enough to continue to improve, but at a snail's pace.

 

[musicsherlock]

I’m currently working in my 32kg for swings but grip is my limiting factor. I just did 16 repeats of 5 swings OTM with the 32. Would it be beneficial to continue on to 20 x 5 swings and then phase in the 32 for 10s or stick with the step loading with 10s. I can currently do 2 ugly sets of 10 swings with each hand.

 

[Ryan Johnson]

I’m currently working in my 32kg for swings but grip is my limiting factor. I just did 16 repeats of 5 swings OTM with the 32. Would it be beneficial to continue on to 20 x 5 swings and then phase in the 32 for 10s or stick with the step loading with 10s. I can currently do 2 ugly sets of 10 swings with each hand.

I have found that when getting into sets of 10 with a heavier weight, setting the clock to 3 min helps immensely.

There would be value in exploring a high med low format with sets of 10 on the 3 min as high, 5x 10 OTM as med and 2h sets of ten as low days.
Let the volume naturally fluctuate.

 

[Cody Long]

It would be interesting to hear: are there people who have actually started with 16 and worked their way to 32 in 8 kg jumps by the book? Well, except for Pavel Macek. Who is, of course, remarkable. At bodyweight of 66 I can only dream of the simple standard right now...

That is my intention. I have completed 14 sessions with the 16kg, both swings and get-ups. I have not done any 2H swings yet, but will follow the prescribed every-third session 2HSW once I'm using the 24kg for most sets. The 16kg is teaching me proper form and patience which is exactly what I need as I'm taking the long-view towards Timeless Simple. My goal is to attain that before I turn 50 in September 2024.

I've included my Progression Plan that I will follow by-the-book. I'm using 20 sessions per level and not sticking with the calendar format. This way I won't be able to cheat my way there by having 3 sessions per week instead of the recommended 5-6/week. I'm excited for this journey and I'm thankful for this forum. There's so much insight shared here and I love the StrongFirst community.

 

[Serranojr]

I am a serial jumper of programs and this year decided to focus (at least try) on one program. S&S has been it. I am step loading the 24kg KB in both 1 arm swings and getups. I am up to 4 sets with the 24kg. By end of year, I will be preparing to move on to the 32kg. The 24kg is still a challenging weight, but It's getting easier the more I do it. I'm very intimidated by the idea of lifting the 32kg. Any advise on how to mentally prepare to lift that weight? I'm having a hard wrapping my head around the idea of doing a getup with 45-50% of my body weight. I thought about going to the 28kg, but that seems wasteful financially. Any feed back is welcome.

 

[Steve Freides]

Any advise on how to mentally prepare to lift that weight?

Put it over your head somehow and lower it to your chest. If you haven't cleaned it yet, do that first. Then jerk or pushpress or even bent press it overhead, then perform the negative of a military press, or even just perform a "get down" from there.

-S-

 

[Serranojr]

Put it over your head somehow and lower it to your chest. If you haven't cleaned it yet, do that first. Then jerk or pushpress or even bent press it overhead, then perform the negative of a military press, or even just perform a "get down" from there.

-S-

That's a good idea. Thanks Steve.

 

[Pavel.Kosenkov]

I am a serial jumper of programs and this year decided to focus (at least try) on one program. S&S has been it. I am step loading the 24kg KB in both 1 arm swings and getups. I am up to 4 sets with the 24kg. By end of year, I will be preparing to move on to the 32kg. The 24kg is still a challenging weight, but It's getting easier the more I do it. I'm very intimidated by the idea of lifting the 32kg. Any advise on how to mentally prepare to lift that weight? I'm having a hard wrapping my head around the idea of doing a getup with 45-50% of my body weight. I thought about going to the 28kg, but that seems wasteful financially. Any feed back is welcome.

32 is 45-50% of my bodyweight as well.
My plan is to get to 5 sets of 3 partials with 24, and then try to make a jump

 

[wespom9]

@Serranojr I recommend some cheat cleans, rack carries as a start.
Definitely then want to get used to it overhead - so a push/press jerk into a waiter march/walk.
I did the 24-28-32 route. I'm ~66-67kg so not too far off from you. Intimidating, but get comfortable

The key part for me was the progression - it's only 1 rep of your 5. take a longer rest prior to that one.
Worst case, stick with partials for a bit. Determine which phase at which you are least confident moving under the bell - build that into your warmup as very light 'pratice'

 

[lais817]

I am a serial jumper of programs and this year decided to focus (at least try) on one program. S&S has been it. I am step loading the 24kg KB in both 1 arm swings and getups. I am up to 4 sets with the 24kg. By end of year, I will be preparing to move on to the 32kg. The 24kg is still a challenging weight, but It's getting easier the more I do it. I'm very intimidated by the idea of lifting the 32kg. Any advise on how to mentally prepare to lift that weight? I'm having a hard wrapping my head around the idea of doing a getup with 45-50% of my body weight. I thought about going to the 28kg, but that seems wasteful financially. Any feed back is welcome.

Do some partial TGU with the 32, and some 2HS swings as well.

Confidence is a huge part of stepping up to the next weight.

 

[Simon L]

I am a serial jumper of programs and this year decided to focus (at least try) on one program. S&S has been it. I am step loading the 24kg KB in both 1 arm swings and getups. I am up to 4 sets with the 24kg. By end of year, I will be preparing to move on to the 32kg. The 24kg is still a challenging weight, but It's getting easier the more I do it. I'm very intimidated by the idea of lifting the 32kg. Any advise on how to mentally prepare to lift that weight? I'm having a hard wrapping my head around the idea of doing a getup with 45-50% of my body weight. I thought about going to the 28kg, but that seems wasteful financially. Any feed back is welcome.

I hear you, I used 4kg jumps but there was something very intimidating psychologically about the 32kg. Visualisation can help, imagine yourself doing it in your mind. I did this a lot for my snatch test! After a solid amount of time with the 24kg, you should 'own' the weight and it should be feeling relatively easy and comfortable.

I wouldn't discount going via the 28kg as an option, especially given your bodyweight.

As others have said, get familiar with the bell and how it feels. Start using it in your S&S warmup for goblet squats, deadlift it a bit, carry it around and take it for a walk. This can help make it feel less intimidating.

Finally make sure your technique is solid. If its not, the heavier bell with reveal any issues! You can't get away with much with a 32kg! If you haven't already find an instructor to take a look at your swing and getup and help you make any improvements needed, this can make a huge difference!

 

[blad51]

@Serranojr I progress my bells in 4k increments.

There is no prize for progressing in 8k increments. Listen to your body.

 

[Pete L]

@Serranojr I progress my bells in 4k increments.

There is no prize for progressing in 8k increments. Listen to your body.

...But not your mind
The mental aspect was huge for me with getups.
If you have the time and the money then +4 kg won't hurt. Only strengthen.
For swings I went 20, 24, 32, 36, 44.
For get ups 20, 24, 32, 36.
That is in part because I have yet to try the 44 kg. And the fact I haven't tried it, is part psychological...

 

[blad51]

...But not your mind
The mental aspect was huge for me with getups.
If you have the time and the money then +4 kg won't hurt. Only strengthen.
For swings I went 20, 24, 32, 36, 44.
For get ups 20, 24, 32, 36.
That is in part because I have yet to try the 44 kg. And the fact I haven't tried it, is part psychological...

I get the mental aspect of KB training. I agree the mental aspect of TGUs is a significant part of progressing to a heavier bell. (I have done TGUs with a 40k bell.)

In my opinion, most kettlebell practioners would be better served progressing in 4kg increments rather than 8kg jumps. This is especially so with a KB that approaches 45-50% of the OP's body weight.

I found that TGUs with bells 32k and above DEMANDED my TOTAL concentration. Likewise, I had to have perfect form.