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Kettlebell The swing

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Why do we pay so much attention to the tiny little details of swing technique? Are we trying to minimize injury, make it possible to swing a heavier bell, increase the effectiveness of a swing, minimize fatigue during a set or session and allow more swings, or doing so for other reasons?
 
Why do we pay so much attention to the tiny little details of swing technique?
See my last answer below.

Are we trying to minimize injury,
Yes.

make it possible to swing a heavier bell
Yes.

increase the effectiveness of a swing,
Yes.

minimize fatigue during a set or session and allow more swings
Fatigue is managed many ways - this is not an important reason why we pay such attention to the details of a swing.

or doing so for other reasons?
We have found great value at being very good at a few, carefully-chosen movements, and the swing is one of them.

-S-
 
Yes, yes, yes!
  • PREVENT injury
  • Make it possible to swing heavier, because that means more of all the rest...
  • Increase effectiveness - outwardly - project power (if I throw the bell, it will go as far as possible)
  • Increase effectiveness - internal results - stimulate fast-twitch muscle fiber growth, movement patterns, and body resiliency
  • Minimize fatigue during a set - alactic power development
  • Minimize fatigue during a session - aerobic system development and muscular endurance
  • Other reasons: Having fun :)
 
Thanks Steve, I will try! (Does that basically mean, just a tiny bit "squattier"?)

Closer to a deadlift... yes, that makes sense. I will try it today, probably with a 32kg. Coincidentally, I'm also deadlifting today. :)

Not that Steve, but here's what I see and how I think about it:

I see that on the down swing, after your hips finish going back, your torso continues to fold forward. Then on the upswing, your shoulders start to come up maybe a smidgen ahead of your hips starting to come forward. So I'm not looking at body position in isolation, but at the timing within the swing.

I try to keep the hips going back, hips flexing/torso coming forward, and the knees and the ankles flexing all starting and finishing together. To me, it feels smoother, better balanced, more powerful, and more aesthetically pleasing.

So especially with a heavy bell, I'm thinking about two things.

First, I imagine pulling up on the bell during the downswing. The purpose of this cue is to resist the bell folding me forward. Another visualization I use is imagining there is a spring or rubber band between my head and the ceiling trying to pull me upright as I hinge. I also think this is related to the "separate the sternum and hands" cue that has been mentioned a few times recently here on the forum (although that is a cue I hadn't really noticed in the book before and haven't tried to implement).

There's a balance to be struck between too much tension resisting the hinge and pulling up on the bell and not enough. Too much, and the swing loses fluidity and gets too "grindy." I'm not trying to noticeably slow the hinge, just subtly resist it to keep from getting folded forward too much or letting my hips get ahead of my shoulders. Finally, I should emphasize that "pulling up" is a visualization/cue. I am not pulling in the sense of bending the arm (the resistance comes from the hips), and the bell is not actually going up. Another way to describe it is keeping slack out of the arm, and ramping up the tension smoothly in response to the drop of the bell.

Second, I imagine the bottom position I want to hit at the bottom of the swing (which, to piggyback on @Steve Freides's point, is basically the bottom of my deadlift). Then, on the down swing I think about hitting that position all at once. I find that imagining the endpoint, and knowing what that position feels like (from patterning the DL), helps me to hit it all together -- shoulders, hips, knees and ankles finishing at the same time.

These are things that I am always monitoring from rep to rep and making adjustments. When I observe myself getting folded forward too much or my shoulders finishing the down swing behind my hips, I go back to these cues, pulling up on the bell and hitting the DL position, and find my pace and power instantly increase.

Hope this makes sense (and helps).
 
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Mastery comes from continual, incremental improvements.

So true. It's deceptive... when you get down to the finer details, it seems to make less difference, externally... but they become more potent. More difficult to see, but they have greater effects. If that makes sense.
 
Yes, makes sense... Thank you @Steve W. ! I'll report back on how it goes today.
 
@Anna C, it is amazing to me how low you get, and how far back you go with the kettlebell. When I try to go that far back and that low I feel it in my lower back. Maybe it is your experience v my relative newness to the kettlebells. I have no issue playing chicken, but there is no way, right now, that I could go back to my elbows.....without falling over. I can get about mid-forearm, lower or deeper and I am "squatty", and I feel tension in my lower back along with feeling like I am about to fall forward.

Your back swing is awesome. I admire your flexibility and power.
 
Yes, yes, yes!
  • Other reasons: Having fun :)

This is really number one to me. I find it fun and interesting to think about these things and try to refine them.

Sure I lift KBs to get stronger and for other functional reasons. But ultimately if it weren't fun, I wouldn't bother.
 
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Well, yes and no. Consider the bottommost position of three lifts - good morning, deadlift, and squat, and in a continuum, examining shoulder position in relation to hip position. Shoulder is higher than hips is squat, in DL they're closer, and in GM they're in a line. I think what I'm suggesting is closer to a squat but it's also closer to a deadlift. One cannot, however, have vertical shins at the back of a heavy kettlebell swing like one can have in a barbell deadlift because of the position of the weight - your knees must come forward somewhat at the bottommost position.

This isn't a particularly simple discussion - hope what I said makes sense. It's also not a particularly simple thing to swing a 40 kg kettlebell at your size, either! It's all a system, and when you move or adjust one thing, with a heavy weight, everything else will change, too, or you'll lose your balance.

-S-
Intuitively Steve, that makes perfect sense given the very high percentage of kettlebell weight to bodyweight demonstrated in Anna's video. With a 40kg KB hurtling backwards, a smaller person can't rely on body mass to absorb the momentum so she(we) compensates instinctively by leaning her torso further forward on the backswing. Watching this video and comparing to her earlier ones with smaller weights, you can see a natural athletic response to an increasing KB weight. I think back to my childhood days where I was much much smaller than friends of mine and in order to stay competitive in strength sports like tackle football (American football, for our overseas friends) or wrestling, or even just lifting a piece of furniture, I would always have to overcompensate to deal with their mass advantages. They'd laugh as I gritted my teeth and my whole body tensed up as I tried to perform a task, but hey man it's physics, I'd tell them!
 
@Steve W., it says "Esteemed on the Forum" underneath your name, and those words ring very true to me. Thank you for everything you contribute here, and please go right on disagreeing whenever, well, whenever you disagree!

-S-
 
My two cents - the forward slope on the shins is within the spec. Mentally they should be up and down, but a slight cant is almost impossible to avoid, esp with heavier weight.

The lower pivot/hinge is also going to be tough to counter on heavier load and again still within spec. I look at it like this, the travel of my hips is a ratio of the travel of the bell. As long as the bell is traveling, my hips should still be in motion. With heavier bell that goes back further, the body has to hinge deeper to accommodate, esp as the stature/weight of the practitioner is lighter relative to the KB. True enough you could hinge that low with a lighter weight but it would not be in response to the load.

I have approximately zero to correct re the form. Maybe the head/neck could be a little more neutral, but again it is still within spec as it stands.

Interesting timing for this thread as I just started doing swings with 40kg and have noticed I have to hinge deep to keep my groove.
 
The Two Hand Swing seems to be looked down upon here, but I far prefer a heavy Two Hand Swing over a One Hand Swing. For me a One Hand Swing is a step in the progression to Cleans and Snatches. The power and strength endurance gained from a Two Hand Swing suits my goals better.
 
@Geoff Chafe, a minimalist must choose one over the other; you don't have to be a minimalist. The two-hand swing is becoming ever more popular as a replacement in Westside type training for speed deadlift day - it's a great movement, without a doubt. The worry, such as it is, is that a trainee might get distracted by going for heavier two-handed swings and stray from the straight path to S&S' goal.

Tomorrow, I'm gonna do me some 44 kg, two-handed swings, in part because I'm taking a break from regular deadlifting after my meet until mid-August or so.

-S-
 
@Steve Freides and @Steve W. , you guys are geniuses. I am quite impressed with the results from implementing your suggested change!

I did these after a full 5/3/1 Deadlift session, and some other stuff. Thought I might be better off to reduce the weight so I tried it first with 32kg, but it was about to fly away... so I figured what the heck, let's repeat with 40kg.

This set in the video is mixed -- my regular way and the "new way":
3 swings regular (Looks just like yesterday's video. First one is fast motion, second two are slow mo.)
3 swings new
2 swings regular
3 swings new

Can you see the difference?

 
The "new" swing looks much more powerful, and it even looks like the bell goes higher. The new form just looks right to me - you are storing more energy or storing it more quickly or releasing it more explosively or some combination of those things. Interesting that the "old" swings in the middle looked a little "new" as well.

-S-
 
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