Kettlebell To wave the load or not? A contrary point of view from Brooks Kubik

[Maine-ah KB]

So as far as periodizationis kinda like grocery shopping. Some people have lists some plan as they shop and most do some of both. I have had great success with planned training and success with Winging it. I will say I’ve made better pure strength gains with plans, but also end up really... really bored in about 6-8 weeks.

 

[Nate]

So as far as periodizationis kinda like grocery shopping. Some people have lists some plan as they shop and most do some of both. I have had great success with planned training and success with Winging it. I will say I’ve made better pure strength gains with plans, but also end up really... really bored in about 6-8 weeks.

Having diagnosed Program ADD, I completely relate to getting bored, even with success (admittedly, I am just doing this as a hobby....). Following a conjugate template allows me variety within structure, ME Upper, DE Lower, A+A, DE Upper, ME Lower, A+A.... I may be blasted for not adhering to a set program but this is just for fun & health for me anyways.

 

[Kenny Croxdale]

So as far as periodizationis kinda like grocery shopping. Some people have lists some plan as they shop...

Having A List

That is a plan, which is what Periodization Training is.

Game Plan

As the saying goes, "No one plans to fail, they fail to plan."

Teams and individual have a plan going into a game or competition.

However, training is a fluid environment. As in football you need to read the signs and be able to call an audible...

Autoregulation

If the weight feels heavy, back off.

If the weight feels light, bump your poundage.

Shop As You...Winging it.

This is not a plan.

This amount to showing up at game or competition with no plan and just hoping you get lucky and it fall on your head.

Kenny Croxdale

 

[North Coast Miller]

So as far as periodizationis kinda like grocery shopping. Some people have lists some plan as they shop and most do some of both. I have had great success with planned training and success with Winging it. I will say I’ve made better pure strength gains with plans, but also end up really... really bored in about 6-8 weeks.

When I train with no program it winds up being a lot like what I see of a lot of scripted ones, with several load and deload phases. The amount and rapidity of gains has a lot to do with nutrition and intent. If I approach each session with intent to hit it and build on the numbers from my previous sessions I make gains.

I cannot keep that up forever though and normally take a step back on my own - maintain my numbers rather than try to improve them. If nothing else derails my training I make another run at it after a week or two, or drift off to some other mode or form of conditioning.

That said, I don't use scripted programming, normally get variation by rotating different exercises and/or rep/set patterns on a daily, with intent to build or maintain loading or rep count as I go.

Staying injury free is the best and most reliable way to make gains and keep them.

In the article I linked re periodization by Stronger by Science, it looks as though daily undulating worked the best, followed by linear, followed by none. Experienced lifters got the most benefit.

Greg did a good job crunching numbers on a lot of studies and a couple of things stand out - periodization makes for quicker gains (over the course of several years there are no studies), no mention of absolute gains. He also found that while benching responded great to periodizing, squat showed almost no statistical difference between undulating, linear, or none. Is a good read.

 

[Jeff Roark]

I've never really peaked for anything myself. Now, I've started out with good intensions to complete the plan but it really never was followed through. It seems as if I always go back to what worked best for me. I personally like the Hepburn and Kubik styles of approach much better as they are close to how I first learned how to train with my uncle. With my uncle we always worked up to several heavy singles, and some times go for a new PR if on fire that day, followed by 2 or 3 rep out sets with lighter weight.

I prefer singles followed by pump sets or Bryce Lane 50/20 with sets of 3-5 reps and never with a weight that forces you into singles territory soon into the timer count down. Bryce and I talked a lot about this issue and both agreed it was what would truly push you over the edge with the 50/20. Bryce Lanes Just Strong approach, similar to a Hepburn plan, would be all the peaking I'd ever need.

 

[LukeV]

Is there a difference between periodising training (ie variations in training effort) and peaking (eg planning for optimal performance on a given date and accepting performance will be sub-optimal before). I don't know about their training but there have been many elite sportspeople that have not believed in peaking as such and have instead focussed on being able to perform at their best at any time eg Bernard Hopkins (boxing) Roger Federer (tennis) Michael Phelps (swimming)

 

[Gary Music]

Many approaches work That is what I have noticed. I think the idea of continuity of training is an important principle to follow for strength.

 

[Marlon Leon]

@LukeV interesting question. Looking at the example of elite athletes I think first we have to look at Dan John's concept of max, max max, max max max. I am paraphrasing from memory here but basically a regular would be something you trained a month and got a bit better. A max max would require more time and is usually done under special circumstances. Dan John tells the story where he did over 30 dips, because there was a room full of women looking at him.
Now a max max max would require several years such as an Olympic cycle whereas each year has a different focus. Over the course of four years the athlete accumulates, intensifies and eventually reduces the work load to let the body compensate and be able to display his best performance. Such an extreme physiological state cannot be maintained for long periods of time. Also mentally it would be too draining.
Hence, Rif says rhat after a peak it always goes down. You can either crash or step down much like when you reach the top of a mountain.
In a normal individual,who is not a beginner anymore, one would periodise the training in order to improve the performance by the end of the cycle, say ten to twelve weeks.
In contrast to a beginner the trainee is required a build up to eventually surpass previous performances. From then on he has to build up again. Similarly to building a pyramid that increases first at the base to get higher at the top.

 

[Deleted member 5559]

In the article I linked re periodization by Stronger by Science, it looks as though daily undulating worked the best, followed by linear, followed by none. Experienced lifters got the most benefit.

I wish there would have been a few more timeframes of the different periodization structures. Short repeated periods of traditional looks like weekly undulating in those examples. In most cases, I feel both linear and undulating periodization follow the block order of hypertrophy, strength, power.



Does the order of the blocks of training matter in addition to the frequency of change? I thought one of the major benefits was separating volume and intensity to create more random block order of periodization. What happens when the block order is less linear?


I find I can really only benefit from autoregulation if the block is long enough to know if it's a light day or a heavy day. Too frequent of undulation combined with autoregulation turns into going as hard as you can every day. I think there is a lot of value of training hard when you don't want to and training what's scheduled when you could do more.

 

[North Coast Miller]

I tend to do my periodizing more through exercise selection than playing around with the same lift for different goals. That way the session is self limiting in some respects, though it still leaves a lot of room for varying intensity, with volume being the bigger variable along with ballistic or grinds.

Going all out on a lift you can only hit for 6 reps is not the same as going all out on a set of 20.

And another thing, I'm not training to powerlift. Is definitely something to keep in mind when discussing ANY longer term protocol - what is this supposed to do?

 

[LukeV]

@LukeV Over the course of four years the athlete accumulates, intensifies and eventually reduces the work load to let the body compensate and be able to display his best performance. Such an extreme physiological state cannot be maintained for long periods of time. Also mentally it would be too draining. Hence, Rif says rhat after a peak it always goes down.

Thanks for that comprehensive response. I guess my question is whether that's the way it has to be or is this cycle of optimal (peaking) / sub-optimal (training) just one approach, perhaps even one that works better but still just one.

Periodisation of training with the goal of peaking in performance has always made sense to me and it does get presented as if it's the only way. I wonder whether there are examples of successful athletes that don't subscribe to that kind of approach (eg perhaps those I mentioned above, Brooks Kubik, Bulgarians etc).

Very interesting thread. Thanks to those that contributed.

 

[Matts]

"Bulgarians"?
Tudor Bompa wrote the book (!) on periodization!

 

[North Coast Miller]

Thanks for that comprehensive response. I guess my question is whether that's the way it has to be or is this cycle of optimal (peaking) / sub-optimal (training) just one approach, perhaps even one that works better but still just one.

Periodisation of training with the goal of peaking in performance has always made sense to me and it does get presented as if it's the only way. I wonder whether there are examples of successful athletes that don't subscribe to that kind of approach (eg perhaps those I mentioned above, Brooks Kubik, Bulgarians etc).

Very interesting thread. Thanks to those that contributed.

There are plenty of examples of athletes who do not follow a peaking program. IIRC many Thai boxers take fights on a weekly as available - one example.

For sports where you compete against a standard or previous "best", a peaking program is going to be mandatory. This is also where the bulk of program theory is coming from.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Periodisation of training with the goal of peaking in performance has always made sense to me and it does get presented as if it's the only way. I wonder whether there are examples of successful athletes that don't subscribe to that kind of approach (eg perhaps those I mentioned above, Brooks Kubik, Bulgarians etc).

Dan John does not belive in "peaking", and for that matter neither in load-scheme-based periodization (mentioned in Easy Strength and Intervention, and probably his other writings)

EDIT: the no periodization does not mean contact heavy load or no waving of the load. It means, the way I use standards it, no long term schemes