_KpaM_
Level 1 Valued Member
Seems like a good program for conditioning. Can this be done with a barbell?
Kettlebell VWC With Dubbells?
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Kettlebelephant
Level 6 Valued Member
IMO not really. It's designed for one-arm C&Js. It's a noticeable difference between 5 reps left and right (-> 50 total reps per arm) or 10 reps with both simultaneously like you'd do with a barbell (-> 100 reps per arm).
Changing it to 5 reps per minute instead of 10 per minute keeps the volume per arm the same, but reduces the overall volume, which alters the conditioning effect.
It's the same for the medium and light days.
Additionally doing multiple reps of barbell C&Js lead to degrading of technique. The barbell C&J is best used in singles.
You can do it with a dumbbell though. I'd still prefer the KB, but dumbbell C&Js are fine.
May I ask why you can't buy a KB?
A 24Kg, which probably is the most versatile weight of them all for men, only costs 60-70 bucks (from quality manufactures like Rogue) and you'll have it for decades.
_KpaM_
Level 1 Valued Member
Ok, i'll try to intergrate it to my routine with dumbbells.
If you are looking for strength and conditioning along the lines of the Jon Engum program that @J Petersen pointed out, but with a barbell, try a web search on this
Bryce Lane 50/20
Briefly summarized: Take a compound movement (BP, DL, SQ, C&P) and you do 50 reps in the space of 20 minutes. Barbell is the usual implement of choice, but you could do this with a sandbag, and you could even do this with double kettlebells.
Word to the wise - start gradually, don't hurt yourself doing too much too soon, and remember that bad form is _never_ an option.
A good guideline is to start with either a 10RM weight or 75% 1RM. NB: According to many sources, those two should work out to be about the same weight.
You can begin by doing this twice a week, and you can eventually add a second movement and end up doing this four times per week provided you don't drive yourself into overtraining by doing so. You could also pick different compound exercises and do each one once/week - more variety of training, less improvement of skill at each lift due to less practice.
You may do other training alongside your 50/20, again if it doesn't push you into overtraining.
For a strength focus, consider starting with a lift you can get only 30 reps in 20 minutes and building up to 50. For more conditioning, start with 50 reps and work up to 100.
Compare this to Jon's program, which is 100 reps in 10 minutes - The 50/20 is more of a strength focus because you're moving more weight for fewer reps, but you will certainly get some conditioning, and without a doubt, the 50/20 is a good way to add meat to your bones provided you eat enough and sleep enough.
NB: If conditioning, particularly for a sport or martial art is your goal, I'd stick with Jon's recommendation.
-S-
Bryce Lane 50/20
Briefly summarized: Take a compound movement (BP, DL, SQ, C&P) and you do 50 reps in the space of 20 minutes. Barbell is the usual implement of choice, but you could do this with a sandbag, and you could even do this with double kettlebells.
Word to the wise - start gradually, don't hurt yourself doing too much too soon, and remember that bad form is _never_ an option.
A good guideline is to start with either a 10RM weight or 75% 1RM. NB: According to many sources, those two should work out to be about the same weight.
You can begin by doing this twice a week, and you can eventually add a second movement and end up doing this four times per week provided you don't drive yourself into overtraining by doing so. You could also pick different compound exercises and do each one once/week - more variety of training, less improvement of skill at each lift due to less practice.
You may do other training alongside your 50/20, again if it doesn't push you into overtraining.
For a strength focus, consider starting with a lift you can get only 30 reps in 20 minutes and building up to 50. For more conditioning, start with 50 reps and work up to 100.
Compare this to Jon's program, which is 100 reps in 10 minutes - The 50/20 is more of a strength focus because you're moving more weight for fewer reps, but you will certainly get some conditioning, and without a doubt, the 50/20 is a good way to add meat to your bones provided you eat enough and sleep enough.
NB: If conditioning, particularly for a sport or martial art is your goal, I'd stick with Jon's recommendation.
-S-
MikeTheBear
Level 6 Valued Member
According to the article, the only reason not to do the two KB C&J is because it requires good shoulder mobility which fighters don't have. If shoulder mobility is not an issue I don't see why you couldn't use the two KB C&J. A barbell C&J is not a bad substitute for two KB C&J, so I don't see why you could not use it. This assumes you can do a C&J with barbell with some competence. If you can, then every minute on the minute or EMOM training works well for the Olympic lifts as long as you keep the reps to no more than 5.
J Petersen
SFG1/SFB
Respectfully, the two armed version of the LCC&J is also a harsh mistress, and requires more long term dedicated work/attentive practice to do the exercise justice than the one armed variety calls for, in addition to the better than average overhead mobility that most fighters are going to lack (double long cycle is one of my all-time faves). A competitive fighter will probably already have too much on his plate to justify the added learning curve of the double.
As always when it isn't girevoy sport we're dealing with, the KB is merely the means to an end, not the event.
As always when it isn't girevoy sport we're dealing with, the KB is merely the means to an end, not the event.
MikeTheBear
Level 6 Valued Member
Going back to the original question, I don't recall VWC stating that you couldn't use a dumbbell for the protocol but it has been a while since I read it. I do remember reading that the snatch is better than the swing, but I don't see how choice of implement would matter that much. However, I will say that VWC is a very specific program designed to increase VO2max. Other than perhaps some wiggle room on choice of implement, you need to follow VWC to the letter if you want to improve VO2max.
If all you are after is "general conditioning," whatever that means, it really doesn't matter much what you do as long as you get your whole body involved. High rep biceps curls are out, but repetition C&Js with a barbell are fine. This is one of the reasons why I like complexes. Complexes spread the load over several muscle groups so that you are not limited by local muscular endurance. For instance, in the C&J, your upper body may tire out but your heart/lungs may still be able to keep going. Solution: add some squats immediately after the C&Js and keep going until, as Pavel puts it, you "cough up a hair ball."
If all you are after is "general conditioning," whatever that means, it really doesn't matter much what you do as long as you get your whole body involved. High rep biceps curls are out, but repetition C&Js with a barbell are fine. This is one of the reasons why I like complexes. Complexes spread the load over several muscle groups so that you are not limited by local muscular endurance. For instance, in the C&J, your upper body may tire out but your heart/lungs may still be able to keep going. Solution: add some squats immediately after the C&Js and keep going until, as Pavel puts it, you "cough up a hair ball."
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