Strong Endurance What Are We Supposed to be FEELING When Doing SF033?

[Luwuwu]

In his book The Quick and The Dead, Pavel writes about what should be done when the training feels too easy - add power, use a band, etc. - several times. He also pointed out that one should never compress the rest periods. His stressing it makes me wonder if I am doing it wrong. I have been doing 033 for a month with a 24, twice a week. Every training session felt extremely hard for me, RPE about 9, I assume. I use max power for my shadow swings and push-ups, and utilise fast&loose drills and Darth Vader breathing for recovery. The heart rate explodes and drops and explodes again. I feel powerful and confident minutes after the session ends, yet the session itself always feels like an inferno. I would like to discuss about how every one of you are feeling when doing 033. Is it considered easy or medium? Am I feeling this because of my poor endurance? What should be done about it?
Thank you!

 

[ShawnM]

In his book The Quick and The Dead, Pavel writes about what should be done when the training feels too easy - add power, use a band, etc. - several times. He also pointed out that one should never compress the rest periods. His stressing it makes me wonder if I am doing it wrong. I have been doing 033 for a month with a 24, twice a week. Every training session felt extremely hard for me, RPE about 9, I assume. I use max power for my shadow swings and push-ups, and utilise fast&loose drills and Darth Vader breathing for recovery. The heart rate explodes and drops and explodes again. I feel powerful and confident minutes after the session ends, yet the session itself always feels like an inferno. I would like to discuss about how every one of you are feeling when doing 033. Is it considered easy or medium? Am I feeling this because of my poor endurance? What should be done about it?
Thank you!

Depends on whether you are doing swings and push ups or snatches. The book states to do 033 for swings and push ups and 044 for snatches. I missed that part the first time I read the book and started off, and still do, snatches on the 033 template. If you are doing snatches switch to 044 and you will be just fine. If you are doing swings and push ups and feel like you lungs are going to explode you probably want to lower your weight to maybe a 20k bell.

How many rounds are you doing? The training is meant to be difficult but it shouldn't kill you.

 

[Red_and_Black]

I've only done one try of it as a trial and I used a 32kg bell and press-ups and did 5 x 6 minute rounds and it felt easy to moderate and I felt energised, which from my understanding is about how's it supposed to feel. Aren't the exercise blocks only lasting 10-12 seconds, and then you have long rests, so how are you smoked? Are you doing the fast and loose drills etc. too hard, or forcing your breathing artifically and hampering your recovery? I just move a little on my feet a bit and recover.

Guess my perception is not too helpful without knowing more about my baseline and levels of S&C, but there ya go!

 

[Luwuwu]

Depends on whether you are doing swings and push ups or snatches. The book states to do 033 for swings and push ups and 044 for snatches. I missed that part the first time I read the book and started off, and still do, snatches on the 033 template. If you are doing snatches switch to 044 and you will be just fine. If you are doing swings and push ups and feel like you lungs are going to explode you probably want to lower your weight to maybe a 20k bell.

How many rounds are you doing? The training is meant to be difficult but it shouldn't kill you.

I think I am strictly adhering to what Pavel instructs in the book: 033c, swings and push-ups, delta 20 principle, dice determined series number, twice a week. I was maintaining 36kg timeless S&S before following Q&D protocol, and went through a long sprint test to determine the weight that I should use for the protocol. The 28kg was a little heavy and with my weaker arm I cannot sprint swing with full force for 20 sec, so I picked up the 24kg and the overspeed eccentric drill to make it explosive. I never thought it would be THAT HARD. This is frustrating.

 

[Luwuwu]

I've only done one try of it as a trial and I used a 32kg bell and press-ups and did 5 x 6 minute rounds and it felt easy to moderate and I felt energised, which from my understanding is about how's it supposed to feel. Aren't the exercise blocks only lasting 10-12 seconds, and then you have long rests, so how are you smoked? Are you doing the fast and loose drills etc. too hard, or forcing your breathing artifically and hampering your recovery? I just move a little on my feet a bit and recover.

Guess my perception is not too helpful without knowing more about my baseline and levels of S&C, but there ya go!T

Thanks for the description! I will try to make adjustments.

 

[ShawnM]

So when I started Q&D I used a template from the article section from either September of 2020 or 2021 that was starting a busy person from the beginning. It started with 2 rounds and built up from there. You may want to consider that direction instead of rolling the dice. While S&S and Q&D are both minimalist programs, they are completely different animals. Or consider using 015 for swings and push ups.

 

[Shawn Reed]

IF you have not attained the Simple Standard of S&S (32kg x 100/5:00 OAS & 32kg x 10/10:00 GU), I would say that Q&D 033 is not the best program for any athlete. Once a baseline of strength and endurance is attained, optimizing and adding power is suitable. I tested these protocols for several months as the book was being written (one of my test results are listed in the book from following the 044 Snatch protocol). My advice would be to train S&S for 3-4 months to own the Simple Standard or even with the 40kg and then switch back to Q&D 033. IT will feel and be a completely different experince...

 

[Luwuwu]

So when I started Q&D I used a template from the article section from either September of 2020 or 2021 that was starting a busy person from the beginning. It started with 2 rounds and built up from there. You may want to consider that direction instead of rolling the dice. While S&S and Q$D are both minimalist programs, they are completely different animals. Or consider using 015 for swings and push ups.

Thank you for the suggestion sir! I really need to drop the volume to 2-3 rounds and build up from there.

 

[Luwuwu]

IF you have not attained the Simple Standard of S&S (32kg x 100/5:00 OAS & 32kg x 10/10:00 GU), I would say that Q&D 033 is not the best program for any athlete. Once a baseline of strength and endurance is attained, optimizing and adding power is suitable. I tested these protocols for several months as the book was being written (one of my test results are listed in the book from following the 044 Snatch protocol). My advice would be to train S&S for 3-4 months to own the Simple Standard or even with the 40kg and then switch back to Q&D 033. IT will feel and be a completely different experince...

Thank you! The last time I tested the timed simple the time it took to finish the test was 18mins. I do lack the strength and endurance necessary to be able to do Q&D.

 

[Shawn Reed]

Thank you! The last time I tested the timed simple the time it took to finish the test was 18mins. I do lack the strength and endurance necessary to be able to do Q&D.

I really believe that you will benefit and appreciate the Q&D 033 or 044 programs once you hit this baseline. 8-12 weeks of S&S or A+A type program followed with Q&D works like magic. I've seen it and experienced it several times myself. Enjoy the journey!

 

[Red_and_Black]

FWIW I now do a linear program of: A&A then S&S then Q&D and then Iron Cardio. (I do some runs for work and 2 BB strength sessions a week if have time on top.)

For A&A I do 6-12 weeks, same with S&S, then 6 weeks of Q&D, then 6-12 of Iron Cardio. I overlap A&A and S&S a bit (up to 3 sessions of each a week). Working well for me.

 

[rwleonard]

I feel powerful and confident minutes after the session ends, yet the session itself always feels like an inferno. I would like to discuss about how every one of you are feeling when doing 033.

It should feel like sprint work, i.e. suck, but you should be able to recover from it fairly quickly. So it sounds like you are doing right!

044 is as hard as I am willing to make myself work on a regular basis.

 

[Bauer]

Great question!

I use max power for my shadow swings and push-ups

Maybe this passage from Q&D will help you:

Hold back your power to 80–90 percent for the first week or two, then go full throttle. Early on, swing or snatch with a free fall. Once you can comfortably do your 100 total reps with max power, ease into overspeed eccentrics. (...)
Start lightly accelerating the ’bell on the way down and back. Build up very slowly...

Tsatsouline, Pavel. The Quick and the Dead: Total Training for the Advanced Minimalist (S.158). StrongFirst, Inc.. Kindle-Version.

 

[Adachi]

I wouldn't claim to know exactly why. BUT,

as I've progressed in my journey. the experience of 044 has noticeably changed in this way.

when I was less strong, 044 seemed perceptively easier.
when I became more strong, 044 seems perceptively harder.

I have to breathe deeper.
I have to keep my active rest milder.

Now, having been through it several times while becoming stronger through this and other training ...

I recover less well between sets.
I recover better between series.

I feel more taxed after the set.
the set feels tougher.
but the program is easier on me throughout the week.
the session feels easier.


HYPOTHESIS: It could be the case that you're a more explosive athlete, in general; and you're paying for it. could be. in which case @Bauer 's citation is even more important to take heed of.

also, maybe you could use a lighter bell.
the test is not perfectly perfect, as purported in the explanation of the test, itself.
the disclaimer may apply - and maybe, you might fit with a lighter bell, anyways.

 

[Luis T. Gonzalez]

In his book The Quick and The Dead, Pavel writes about what should be done when the training feels too easy - add power, use a band, etc. - several times. He also pointed out that one should never compress the rest periods. His stressing it makes me wonder if I am doing it wrong. I have been doing 033 for a month with a 24, twice a week. Every training session felt extremely hard for me, RPE about 9, I assume. I use max power for my shadow swings and push-ups, and utilise fast&loose drills and Darth Vader breathing for recovery. The heart rate explodes and drops and explodes again. I feel powerful and confident minutes after the session ends, yet the session itself always feels like an inferno. I would like to discuss about how every one of you are feeling when doing 033. Is it considered easy or medium? Am I feeling this because of my poor endurance? What should be done about it?
Thank you!

Q and D isnt for everyone. What is your training history? Pavel mentions the program is an advanced minimalist program. I’m not calling you a beginner. He does say that if you are still working your way to simple standard it isn’t for you. People who receive the most profound benefits are experienced athlets, people who can press the beast, etc. Just depends if you are the type of person who can benefit from the program.

 

[james_1127]

Q&D is always brutal for me. its supposed to be a hard buildup then a longer rest to recover... maybe add and extra minute to the recovery? So, go 10/2 or 5/4 of the swings then rest top of the minute + 2 min instead of just 1 min then go into pushups, or rest top of the minute + 1 min, go into pushups then rest +2 after the circuit is complete? I personally would add an extra minute of rest somewhere... just my $.2 cents

 

[Erik W]

I did Q&D 044 before meeting Simple in S&S. I still felt like I benefited. It was not time wasted. Could I get more if I was stronger before I started? That's what the book says, so I trust it. Still, I feel like it's still a fine program if you're not a rank beginner.

 

[Anth]

I would love to hear this question answered for other programs. It would be a great conversation and a way to gather data...

 

[Luwuwu]

T ha

I really believe that you will benefit and appreciate the Q&D 033 or 044 programs once you hit this baseline. 8-12 weeks of S&S or A+A type program followed with Q&D works like magic. I've seen it and experienced it several times myself. Enjoy the journey!

Thank you sir! Wish you a good day!

 

[Luwuwu]

It should feel like sprint work, i.e. suck, but you should be able to recover from it fairly quickly. So it sounds like you are doing right!

044 is as hard as I am willing to make myself work on a regular basis.

Good to know that!