Kettlebell Going Goblet Heavy

[pet']

Hello,

Maybe that to a certain extent, there are some kb weights (from 32 to 48) that transfer the most to other moves. Out of these weights, maybe the transfer is less prolific ?

I mean that maybe the WTH effect is not linear, but more similar to a Gauss curve

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Shahaf Levin]

Feedback is a key to productive practice. Since goblet squats are self-limiting by nature they give allot of feedback in every rep and therefore are a wonderful practice tool. This why they are great for teaching people to squat, and in our case improving their squat technique. Everybody, at any level, can benefit from improved technique.
I think that most of the WTH effect of goblet squats comes from that self-limiting nature.

in the world of squatting, the Beast is a Barbie weight, and so, I might add, is 315. To squat heavy, well, you simply need to squat heavy.

315lbs is Barbie weight? To who and to what goal?
For a powerlifter, sure, that's not gonna turn any heads, at least not in a good way. For a 155lbs athlete in a non powerlifting sport that's 2xBW. This is somewhere around the point of diminishing returns and therefore can be considered "enough". And yes, you can't train only light and expect to lift heavy, the body reacts differently to the total load. But most people can improve technique under (relative) heavy load.

 

[pet']

Hello,

And yes, you can't train only light and expect to lift heavy

True.

As a feedback : I trained long time doing only bdw pull ups. Multiple sets (5) of high reps (max - 1, avoiding failure), with low rep between sets (25s). Doing that, I got a weighted pull up @44kg added (I weigh 63).

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Kettlebelephant]

Mark Tommey was already squatting around 315lbs, but everytime he came close to going past that mark he got injured or went into overtraining. Then he used the mentioned goblet squat routine and got past 315lbs with ease.
He credited it to stronger abs from goblet squatting.

Yes, in the world of squatting the Beast is a Barbie weight for the legs, but not for the abs!
I find a Beast goblet squat to be more demanding for the abs than a 315lbs backsquat. Although I agree that Beast goblet squats won't get you to 315lbs without aditional barbell training.

 

[Keep Lifting]

Feedback is a key to productive practice. Since goblet squats are self-limiting by nature they give allot of feedback in every rep and therefore are a wonderful practice tool. This why they are great for teaching people to squat, and in our case improving their squat technique. Everybody, at any level, can benefit from improved technique.
I think that most of the WTH effect of goblet squats comes from that self-limiting nature.



315lbs is Barbie weight? To who and to what goal?
For a powerlifter, sure, that's not gonna turn any heads, at least not in a good way. For a 155lbs athlete in a non powerlifting sport that's 2xBW. This is somewhere around the point of diminishing returns and therefore can be considered "enough". And yes, you can't train only light and expect to lift heavy, the body reacts differently to the total load. But most people can improve technique under (relative) heavy load.

My apologies if the 315 remark came off as pompous, it was un-intentional - though your comment about diminishing returns is way off point, HEAVY squats are one of the best tools for athletes, period. I tend to write from the perspective of someone who has been lifting/squatting for ages, so for an athlete who started lifting at the age of 12 (now 51) and lifted for sports through college (weighing 175lbs), then worked in the fitness world for ten years before clamping into a desk and staring at a computer, 315 is not a heavy squat - 315x5x5 is a light leg day for that population and 2x bodyweight is not considered a heavy squat in that circle, it's just not. I agree with @Kettlebelephant, that for the abs, goblets are a better tool. I'll also say that I love goblets for focusing attention on the upper body during the squat movement and I do find that there is a nice carryover to barbell squats in that regard.

 

[Shahaf Levin]

My apologies if the 315 remark came off as pompous, it was un-intentional

Didn't not came off as pompous, your perspective wasn't clear to me in that post. It is now.

though your comment about diminishing returns is way off point, HEAVY squats are one of the best tools for athletes, period.

The point of diminishing return is quite more sport specific than wrote in the previous post. Athlete is way to generic for that discussion. However, being where it maybe for any given sport, it does exists in my opinion, heavy squats included. I agree that HEAVY squats are amazing tool for athletes, I just think that "HEAVY" is goal dependent.

It just felt that the overall discussion stopped being about the GS as a tool to improve the back squat and went on to "is 315 heavy?". I guess I did my share to keep it there

 

[pet']

Hello,

What would be interesting would be doing this squat routine only (with both volume and frequency) and then test it on a standard back squat. More or less we tried to create equivalence between S&S and DL.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[Keep Lifting]

Didn't not came off as pompous, your perspective wasn't clear to me in that post. It is now.



The point of diminishing return is quite more sport specific than wrote in the previous post. Athlete is way to generic for that discussion. However, being where it maybe for any given sport, it does exists in my opinion, heavy squats included. I agree that HEAVY squats are amazing tool for athletes, I just think that "HEAVY" is goal dependent.

It just felt that the overall discussion stopped being about the GS as a tool to improve the back squat and went on to "is 315 heavy?". I guess I did my share to keep it there

I certainly did my share to pull the topic away from the original post - all things said, I do believe that goblets are a great tool for improving ones squat or learning the squat movement as a first timer. the goblet makes it easier to lock into a proper bottom position and it reinforces the upper body as a great assistant in the movement. plus, if used as recommended in S&S, the goblet helps open the hips. great overall movement and beneficial to most general strength developing programs.

 

[Steve Freides]

Mark Tommey was already squatting around 315lbs, but everytime he came close to going past that mark he got injured or went into overtraining. Then he used the mentioned goblet squat routine and got past 315lbs with ease.
He credited it to stronger abs from goblet squatting.

Yes, but a two-kettlebell front squat is even better as regards strengthening your abs. I have front squatted a pair of 32 kg kettlebells and I find it much harder than goblet squatting a 48 kg. Everyone's different and, of course, we can ascribe part of the difference simply to the greater load. But for someone who uses the kettlebell as a counterbalance, the rack position of the front squat forces better use of the hips and more upright squatting posture. For someone who is able to goblet squat while holding the bell close and keeping the elbows close, both things that the front squat requires, then I don't think there would be much difference.

JMO, YMMV.

-S-

 

[pet']

Hello,

I also notice that some people have more difficulties to do a bodyweight squat, than a loaded squat (heavy or not). Then, even if I am not sure, I think a heavy loaded squat can hide some lack of technique. IMO, it would be better to always start bdw, and progressively increase the load.

Kind regards,

Pet'

 

[watchnerd]

I must say that I'm skeptical about the goblet squat leading to substantial improvements in the barbell squat. It's a great warm up drill and for someone who has never done a squat with the weight in front it will likely help strengthen the abs which may result in some improvement in the squat. It's also an interesting way to do high rep squats for strength-endurance. But I seriously doubt that 48 kg goblet squats will lead to a 315 squat without other training.

I'm skeptical, as well.

I realize one can usually squat more with the barbell back squat than other variations, but 315 lbs = ~140 kg.

Using a 1 RM calculator, one has to get to 60 reps of a 48 kg weight to get 1 RM >140 kg.

Granted, a barbell squat is easier, so shave a bit off that number, but no matter how you slice it, it's a lot of reps and there are certainly more efficient ways to get a 6 plate back squat than high reps of a 48 kg kettlebell.very

 

[watchnerd]

I confess I find quite a bit to find fault with in that video. My biggest complaint is that even a Beast goblet squat is still a Barbie weight when it comes to squatting, so why not reap the benefits of squatting and pause at the bottom?

I've been experimenting by taking this to the next level with dead start goblet squats (no eccentrics).

Put the bell on the floor, squat down to it, curl it up to goblet hold, hang out for a long time in the bottom holding the bell, then go up.

 

[MikeTheBear]

Using a 1 RM calculator, one has to get to 60 reps of a 48 kg weight to get 1 RM >140 kg.

I've read that those rep max calculators get a bit fuzzy after 10 reps. Makes sense since strength-endurance, while it does depend on strength, is its own strength quality.

A 48 kg goblet squat for 60 reps would certainly be an impressive feat of strength-endurance.

 

[watchnerd]

I've read that those rep max calculators get a bit fuzzy after 10 reps. Makes sense since strength-endurance, while it does depend on strength, is its own strength quality.

A 48 kg goblet squat for 60 reps would certainly be an impressive feat of strength-endurance.

Oh, they definitely get fuzzy.

60 reps of anything is just endurance / cardio. It's not really strength training at that point.

 

[Steve Freides]

I've read that those rep max calculators get a bit fuzzy after 10 reps

Some of them stop at 10 reps, others at up to 15, but I've never seen a 1RM calculator that'll accept more than 15 reps.

This is also highly variable by the person.

-S-

 

[Alan Mackey]

If the weight is light, take steps to make it heavier by focus on your mobility to get into the best bottom position possible, and then learn to repressurize and come back up strong. Or just pause for 1-second then come back up.

This is how I actually:

- Make KBs and bodyweight exercises "heavier" than they are.

- Make sure that I completely own the load before bumping it.

This applies to any exercise I'm currently doing (except ballistics and carries):

- Inhale and pressurize before each rep.

- Exhale slowly through your teeth while doing the initial phase of each rep (eccentric phase in squats, concentric phase in pull ups, it all depends on the particular exercise).

- Pause at the botttom/top (again, it all depends on the particular exercise), breathe a couple of times and repressurize.

- Exhale slowly through your teeth while doing the final phase of each rep (concentric phase in squats, eccentric phase in pull ups, it all depends on the particular exercise).

- And start the cycle all over again, for the number of prescribed reps.

It's a wonderful form of autoregulation which ensures you DO own the weight.

Doing 5x5 front squats and pull ups this way gets "interesting" rather quickly.