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Nutrition The ketogenic diet + S&S combination

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prash_1990

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Hi guys!

Just bought the Simple & Sinister book today and read through most of it. Really impressed with the rationale behind the program structure. I have been training with Kettlebells for the past couple months now and have been seeing a decent increase in strength. I intend to start the S&S program today.

I have been trying my best to be scientific about the whole food + workout + recovery combination this time around. As part of a long term dietary lifestyle reconditioning, I have been on a Ketogenic diet (+ intermittent fasting) for the last 2 months and I intend to stay on it for a couple years (as of today) due to the stability of the energy levels, lack of cravings and mental clarity. I recently found out that explosive workout programs like S&S (and even my current kettlebell training of Swings, Clean + Press, Snatches, TGUs, etc) which need sudden bursts of energy usually end up working the body in the anaerobic mode. The only source of energy in that state is either sugar in the system or muscle glycogen reserves. Since my primary source of energy is now fats, my body is theoretically supposed to work best in the aerobic mode (since fats need oxygen for getting metabolised). I assume my glycogen reserves are more of less entirely depleted by this time. The following post by Pavel also seems to reaffirm that S&S would work more in the anaerobic region:

StrongFirst Roadwork | StrongFirst

Have I understood this right so far? I'd welcome some input on this from people who actually know this stuff!

I looked around in the forums and couldn't find someone who's specifically done the S&S program while on the keto diet. I was wondering if any of you have actually done this and if so, were there any difficulties with power during the workout. The main question that I am asking myself is, 'Is it a good idea for me to be on the keto diet while attempting to follow the S&S program?'.

Hope someone can shed some light on this subject.

P.S. - I wasn't sure if this should land in the S&S forum or the diet forum. My apologies if I picked the wrong place to post this.
 
There are endurance athletes who are adapted to burning fat for fuel - for S&S, you should have no troubles being in ketosis, just be patient with yourself getting used to it.

My observation - no science claimed - is that most people who have problems adhering to a ketogenic diet simply don't follow the instructions well enough. There is a never-never land of not getting enough carbs but not being in ketosis that's no fun - best to use keto strips and test yourself as often as needed to be sure you're actually doing what you think you're doing.

One can gain weight on a keto diet, or lose weight on it, depending on how much you eat, but the general consensus is that you can do better in terms of building or preserving muscle on a keto diet while also losing fat.

Ketosis doesn't require zero carbs - again, find what works for you. I typically have 50-ish grams of carbs every day, usually in the form of a protein bar mid-morning and a roll or piece of bread with dinner, and I have plenty of energy for all my exercise and the rest of my life.

Ketosis means you're going to want to make sure you get enough fat in your diet - I have lots of heavy cream in my coffee from mid-morning on, put cheese and sour cream on everything possible. Another never-never land is not getting enough carbs but also not getting enough fats, again best avoided.

JMO.

-S-
 
Welcome, @prash_1990 !

I haven't done S&S + keto combo specifically, but I've done S&S-style traning on a low-carb (Atkins) diet and it worked fine.

I think there are two ways to progress with S&S: 1) energetically bang out the reps each day and keep progressing by the book towards the next heaiver kettlebell, or 2) patiently practice the exercises in S&S every day by the book, being extremely dedicated to technique, learning all the nuances, and being really committed to doing each part of it better each and every day... almost forgetting about the weight until you notice that it's pretty easy and maybe you should grab a heavier kettlebell.

Of course, one could progress pretty well by doing both -- and many have!

The reason I make this distinction is that it IS possible to progress by just doing the second, and I feel like that mindset would serve you well on a keto diet. It may take a little longer but that's OK, you still get the benefits along the way. (Just don't stay stuck forever with a 16kg kettlebell, or you will stagnate.)

It's also possible to progress by just doing the first, but then it gets frustrating when you are low energy and it becomes easy to get sloppy. Then progress slows or gets tripped up with problems.

Technique is very important, so you're in the right place here to find lots of discussion and resources about it.

But also, find an SFG instructor for some in-person coaching! It will be well worth your time.
 
prash_1990 said:
I recently found out that explosive workout programs like S&S (and even my current kettlebell training of Swings, Clean + Press, Snatches, TGUs, etc) which need sudden bursts of energy usually end up working the body in the anaerobic mode. Since my primary source of energy is now fats, my body is theoretically supposed to work best in the aerobic mode
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Explosive Work = The Phosphagen Energy System

Limit Strength and Explosive Training resides in the Phosphagen Energy System rather than the Glycolytic Energy System.

As the article you posted noted about the "Alactacid"/Phosphagen System is,

"You can go very hard for ten to thirty seconds—and then the tank is empty."

Repetition Range

Both Limit Strength and Power utilize the Repetition Range of 1 - 5 per set. Thus, a Limit Strength and/or Power Set is completed in less than 30 seconds. Hence, Limit Strength and Power work off ATP, The Phosphagen Energy System.

The Empty ATP Tank

Limit Strength and Power Sets deplete ATP.

However, ATP is quickly re-synthesized in the muscle in rest. Dr Greg Haff's research demonstrated that around 79% of ATP is restored in approximately 45 seconds.

Full ATP restoration take around 3 minute of rest.

prash_1990 said:
The only source of energy in that state is either sugar in the system or muscle glycogen reserves.
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Glycogen Energy System

Muscle Glycogen is the primary source of fuel for activities or exercise that are between 30 second to 2 minutes.

Thus, Sets with 8 Repetition or more employs the Glycogen Energy System.

Secondly, Sets with 8 Repetition or more is Hypertrophy (Bodybuilding) Training; not Limit Strength and Power.

That means if you are truly performing Power Movements, you are't employing much Muscle Glycogen. Power is ATP dependent.

prash_1990 said:
Since my primary source of energy is now fats, my body is theoretically supposed to work best in the aerobic mode
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Ketogenic Diet Energy System Training

The two Energy System that work well with the Ketogenic Diet are...

1) Phosphagen Energy System: Keeping Repetition Low, 1 - 5 Reps per Set. This ensure you complete them in 30 seconds or less.

2) Oxidative Energy System: Activities that last longer than 2 minutes employ more ketones (body fat) for energy.

prash_1990 said:
I assume my glycogen reserves are more of less entirely depleted by this time.
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Muscle Glycogen

Research shows that once you are "Keto Adapted" glycogen stored in muscle is approximately the same for those on the Ketogenic Diet as those on a Traditional High Carbohydrate Western Diet.

The issue is that on a Ketogenic Diet your are...

Ketone Dependent

You body becomes efficient at using ketones for fuel and inefficient at using glucose. That means you have plenty of glucose available but are unable to access it.

Think of it like you ATM Card that limits the amount of cash you can take out in a day. You need let's say $400 but you Daily ATM Limit is $200.

Ironically, The Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet makes individual efficient at using glucose and inefficient at using ketones, body fat for fuel.

Personal Experience

I've been on the Ketogenic Diet for two years, due to a metabolic condition. I am a Powerlifter who employs Power and Limits Strength Training which falls into the same Energy System as your training protocol.

With that said, here's the key that will enable you to train for Explosive Power and Limit Strength.

Power and Strength Train in the Phosphagen Energy System

It is between 10 to 30 seconds; with 10 seconds being the "Sweet Spot". After 10 seconds Power and Strength drops like a rock.

1 - 5 Repetition Per Set ensure you are in the "Phosphagen System Zone".

Rest between Sets need to be 3 minutes or longer. This ensure full ATP Restoration.

Cluster Set Training

This is an effective method that works for individual on the Ketogenic Diet, actually any diet.

Short rest period are taken between Repetition in a Set. As Dr Greg Haff's research demonstrated that resting up to 45 seconds between Repetition restored 79% of ATP.

Power-Strength Cluster Sets

1) 1 - 3 Repetition Per Cluster with up to 45 seconds ensure greater force production (Power and Strength).

Power Clean Cluster Set Example

135 lb X 2 Reps, Rest 45 Seconds, 135 lb X 2 Reps, Rest 45 Seconds, 135 lb X 2 Reps, Rest 45 Seconds, 135 lb X 2 Reps, Rest 45 Seconds, 135 lb X 2 Reps, Stop. This completes the Cluster Set.

Rest 3 minutes. The repeat Power Clean for around 5 Cluster Sets.

Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training

Traditional Bodybuiling-Hypertrophy Training is the most effective method at increasing muscle mass.

However, research by Dr Jonathan Oliver demonstrated that Power could be increased with an increase in muscle mass with Hypertrophy Cluster Sets.

The Hypertrophy Cluster Set Training Protocol follows the same concept as the Power-Strength Cluster Set Protocol.

The difference is more Repetition Per Cluster Set and Shorter Rest Periods between the Cluster Reps.

Bench Hypertrophy Cluster Set Example

185 lb X 5 Reps, Rest 15 Seconds, 185 lb X 5 Reps, Rest 15 Seconds, 185 lb X 5 Reps, Rest 15 Seconds, 185 lb X 5 Reps, Rest 15 Seconds, 185 lb X 5 Reps, Rest 15 Seconds.Stop. This completes the Cluster Set.

Rest 3 minutes. The repeat Power Clean for around 5 Cluster Sets.

Compensatory Acceleration

Another major component of Cluster Set Training is to perform each Repetition with a much force as possible. Drive the bar up as hard and fast as you can.

prash_1990 said:
The main question that I am asking myself is, 'Is it a good idea for me to be on the keto diet while attempting to follow the S&S program?'.
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Ketogenic Diet Energy System

Explosive Power and Limit Strength can be increased on the Ketogenic Diet if you write and adhere to the the right training protocol.

The Right Training Protocol For Power and Limit Strength Training for those on a Ketogenic Diet means employing method with the emphasis on the Phosphagen Energy System and not straying into the Glycolytic Energy System.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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kennycro@@aol.com said:
You body becomes efficient at using ketones for fuel and inefficient at using glucose. That means you have plenty of glucose available but are unable to access it.

Think of it like you ATM Card that limits the amount of cash you can take out in a day. You need let's say $400 but you Daily ATM Limit is $200.
Click to expand...

Great analogy!
 
kennycro@@aol.com said:
You body becomes efficient at using ketones for fuel and inefficient at using glucose. That means you have plenty of glucose available but are unable to access it.

Think of it like you ATM Card that limits the amount of cash you can take out in a day. You need let's say $400 but you Daily ATM Limit is $200.

Ironically, The Traditional Western High Carbohydrate Diet makes individual efficient at using glucose and inefficient at using ketones, body fat for fuel.
Click to expand...

And thus, one extreme to the other. I'm an advocate for sitting on the fence with the dull, boring diet of moderation of good food. I need a pr machine to sex it up a bit with a catchy riff, an instagram feed to take on those vegans, the high fat revolutionary army and those carnivores. Oh. I feel a rant coming on but I'll spare you.....
S&S is moderately hard high intensity served best by a diet of moderation of mostly good food. It is not an endurance event. And good food contains carbohydrates.
 
prash_1990 said:
I recently found out that explosive workout programs like S&S (and even my current kettlebell training of Swings, Clean + Press, Snatches, TGUs, etc) which need sudden bursts of energy usually end up working the body in the anaerobic mode. The only source of energy in that state is either sugar in the system or muscle glycogen reserves. Since my primary source of energy is now fats, my body is theoretically supposed to work best in the aerobic mode (since fats need oxygen for getting metabolised). I assume my glycogen reserves are more of less entirely depleted by this time.
Click to expand...

I am no expert on this subject, but many who use S&S also employ ketogenic diet.

My understanding goes like this:

ATP muscle fuel is (re)generated by CrP, glycolysis (both lactic and alactic) and fat. The turnover rate is in a declining scale with CrP likened to a rocket with small gas tank or more like bullet from a gun. Glycolysis above the anaerobic threshold comes in 2nd - it begins immediately upon any strong exertion, takes about 15 seconds to fire up the reaction to top speed, and burns out in 40-120 seconds depending, most due to accumulation of metabolites that limit muscle contraction. Alactic glycolysis is below the level of rapid lactic acid accumulation, churns out ATP faster than fat oxidation and can run for a long time - hours before running out of gas in well conditioned athletes - this is the primary fuel for competitive distance athletes such as Tour de France or marathon runners. Fat oxidation produces fewest ATP per unit time but never really runs dry. All of these systems run concurrently with specific contribution based on level of exertion.

Fast twitch muscles can use CrP and glucose. Fast twitch increase in size more readily than slow twitch. Slow twitch muscles can use glucose and fat. Slow twitch are smaller and have less potential for size increase, but exert nearly as much force as fast twitch muscle - just not quickly.

CrP stores regenerate fairly slowly over time, but will recharge a good initial percentage rapidly by scavenging excess ATP produced by glycolysis or fat oxidation - meaning you have stopped exerting yourself.

In your case the ketone bodies can produce ATP faster than straight up fat oxidation but not as fast as glycolysis. As long as you do S&S or most other training protocols that do not require high intensity for longer periods of time you should be fine. Many people on ketogenic diets engage in bodybuilding and even CrossFit.
 
ali said:
And thus, one extreme to the other.
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The Ketogenic Diet and The Traditional High Carbohydrate Diet

Yes, the Ketogenic Diet is a extreme High Fat Diet. You become more efficient with burning ketones (utilizing body fat for fuel) and less efficient at utilizing glucose.

The Traditional Western Diet is an extreme High Carbohydrate Diet. You become more efficient and dependent on glucose for fuel and inefficient at accessing ketones (body fat) for energy.

My Diet Choise

As I stated, I'm on the Ketogenic Diet due to a metabolic health issue. Thus, my research was based identifying how to train on a Ketogenic Diet while ensuring optimal High Intensity Limit Strength and Power Training.

The information that I provide is directed toward individual (for whatever reason) on the Ketogenic Diet who need some training guidance.

ali said:
S&S is moderately hard high intensity
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Diets, Training and Energy Systems

To reiterate, High Intensity Training Program performed effectively on a Ketogenic Diet; dependent on a well written program that caters to the right Energy System.

ali said:
...served best by a diet of moderation of mostly good food.
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The Right Tool For The Right Job

Diets are like tools. You want to use the right tool for the right job.

A hammer works better for driving a nail than a crescent wrench.

The same applies to diets and sports/activities.

ali said:
...good food contains carbohydrates.
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Carbohydrates

Glycolytic Energy System Athletes: Individuals in sport which fall into the category definitely need a higher carbohydrate/glucose intake.

Phosphagen Energy System: Individual in sports that fall into this category depend on ATP, they are not reliant on carbohydrates.

Oxidative Energy System: Individual in sports that fall into this category are more dependent on ketones than glucose.

Intermittent Fasting

As I have stated in previous post, I do well on the Ketogenic Diet and like it.

However, I an not an advocate of the Ketogenic Diet. That due to the fact that it is so restrictive; the harder you make something, the harder it is to maintain, the greater attrition.

One of the benefits of Intermittent Fasting is it allows you to be "Metabolically Flexible"; the body become efficient at utilizing ketones or glucose dependent on the sport/activity.

Metaphorically speaking, you are a hybrid car; able to use gas or electricity. Intermittent Fasting is something everyone has done at one time or another, skip a meal.

There is nothing to count or prepare.

Kenny Croxdale
 
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"Metabolically Flexible"; the body become efficient at utilizing ketones or glucose dependent on the sport/activity.

ali said:
Yes. Totally agree.
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Intermittent Fasting

I am a proponent of Intermittent Fasting. Research has demonstrated that it provide a multitude of heath benefits.

Metabolic Flexibility

One of the primary benefits for athletes/everyone is that Intermittent Fasting enables individual to become a "Hybrid Car"; able to efficiently use ketones or glucose dependent on the energy demand of that activity.

"Fasting, The New Coffee"

I read the article that you post on this. Interesting, unfortunately, no references were cite.

I found the Abstract research article, which provide the "Cliff Notes", no in depth information.

Evaluating Data

It is hard to evaluate any article without reviewing the references for more in depth information.

It is also hard to make an evaluation off the Research Abstract, which only provide a snapshot of information rather than providing the whole picture.

Point-Counter Point

Secondly, comparatives of research from both sides need to be examined to make an informed evaluation of any information presented.

Also, reviewing information on how the research was conducted is vital component.

Kenny Croxdale
 
I posted the IF thing to make reference to the total drivel surrounding diets and fads, liking it to coffee, although it could be pretty much anything.....there is research suggesting it is good, research that it is bad, research that it cures all manner of diseases, research that it invokes sudden death etc, one week it is good, next it is bad, or very bad blah-de-blah.
I'm of the view that most people should just eat a little less, or a lot less as the case maybe, and move more, or a lot more as the case maybe. And drink more tea, haha!
And with IF, such is the trend, no doubt it will be bad sooner or later. Like carbs. Like fat. Like protein. Like milk. Like eggs. Like red meat. Like chocolate. What goes around comes around.....and unlike yourself I never read the paper because I had already presumed it to be drivel. Seems I was right.....thanks for letting me know!
And, yeah, fasting here and there is a good thing, I think, for now anyway. I don't purposefully fast, out of circumstances more often than not but in general I just eat little during the day and have a main feast later. I will skip breakfast for a while the next day if I've over indulged but I don't approach anything diet related with attention to detail.....other than cooking it. Bon appetit!
 
@prash_1990
If your goal is weight loss my brother has been on a keto diet since 9/17. In that time he's lost 100 lbs. doing only S&S 3 x week. The name of the game is 'do what you can do for the long term'.

He works it well and can even enjoy a beer occasionally. The 'blue can' one I believe.. :p
 
Those of us who do Warrior Diet or other form of Intermittent Fasting are in ketosis as a rule for at least part of our day. I've gone all-in and am eating a keto-type diet for about the last month and I think it's _great_ - never hungry, losing the couple of pounds I wanted to, never been thinner or stronger.

-S-
 
Just trained for 1hr 12min, It's 12:44 PST and been fasting from 7:30 pm last night. I think I just burned some fat..

I'm 6'- 2" @ 192 lbs and stay pretty lean by choice. IF is one weapon in the arsenal among others. Thought about keto but it's too much work for me right now.. Perhaps down the road when life is a bit more steady.

Edit: Tried Warrior Diet but found I need more food in the morning as I burn alot of calories working. So now it's morning and evening as a rule. Oh yeah, my favorite cheat meal is the biggest Dbl. cheeseburger and fries I can find.. Two Double Doubles at In and Out burger fit the bill nicely.:D
 
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ali said:
You can be an efficient fat burner and be nowhere near ketogenesis.
Splitting hairs maybe, I realise, semantics.
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Once a person is fairly athletic you're going to burn fat readily and efficiently depending on the activity level - well above baseline controls. I have no strong opinions on this either way anymore, though also have no real reason to tinker with my macros to any great extent.

I will point out that being on a high fat/low carb diet to improve burning fat, while ingesting more fat, doesn't really put you ahead of the next guy that burns less/eats less fat. Numerous studies show essentially a push on this one - go with what makes you feel good.
 
My personal experience is that carbs wear off - I eat them, and then I get hungry. Fat seems to stick. Overall, I'm happier being in ketosis because I'm less hungry, and everything I eat is tremendously satisfying.

As but one example, yesterday I had coffee when I got up. I went to the grocery store and on my list were ham, salami, and provolone cheese from the deli counter. I asked for it thinly sliced, and was given a couple of slices of each to try - that was my "breakfast". I had nothing else to eat, until dinner. For dinner, I took out several leaves of Romain lettuce, put them on a plate, and made up a mixture of whole milk ricotta cheese, small pieces of salami, plus a bit of olive oil, oregano, salt and pepper - and I put that into the lettuce leaves to make "wraps". I was still hungry afterwards, and my wife had made a package of hot dogs for whoever wanted them, so I had a hot dog - organic, all natural, that sort of thing, without a roll, just a bit of mustard on it. My wife had also made some pan fried chicken, and I had a very small sandwich with a piece of that, sharp cheddar cheese, and mayo. The roll was 14 grams of carbs.

And I weigh little less today than I did yesterday, and I feel great, both perfect as I have my last heavy lifting day tomorrow and then a meet a week later....

-S-
 
If I wasn't so damn lazy I'd gather ingredients, do Bulletproof coffee and try the keto way..

I do well on fats and protein as it is, my carbs mostly consist of:

- oatmeal
- Ezekial bread
- brown rice
- sweet potato

I can eat apples and other fruits but not stand alone, a handful of almonds or a bit of cheese help keep my blood sugar steady. Without the fats and fiber I tend to roller coaster too much.. I keep carbs to a minimum and tend to eat more after hard glycolytic training sessions.
 
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