Kettlebell Program Hopping

[offwidth]

Just looking at process/outcome goals. They aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't achieve your outcome goals then your process goals are either insufficient or incorrect (or you were working with a very aggressive or unrealistic timeline). Process goals put the focus on what it takes to get to our desired outcome, and it sidesteps some of the potentially unhealthy mindsets that can come from be overly focused on the outcome. This process creates behavior change that allows you to reach the intended outcome by focusing on the process. A process goal gives you milestones to accomplish that are within your control.

Strength training should have a specific outcome - getting stronger. Focusing on the process of training doesn't take that away, it shifts the focus. If the outcome is a 300lb bench press, then there is a process that you can implement that, when consistently implemented over a long enough time, will take you there. If our goal is to bench press 300lbs and our process involves doing a 50 burpee a day for a month challenge... Well you might hit all your process goals and steps and etc. and complete that challenge and be no closer to benching 300 than you were a month ago. Process goals still need to be directed.

I'm not trying to be coy here. A training plan (or program) is essentially a series of process goals. You need to train this many days a week. You need to squat this many days a week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight this week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight the next week. When you miss - how do you shift the plan? Is there a fixed end point (e.g. a competition) or is there a floating end point? Implementing a good training plan requires more than just writing it - scheduling training time, eating appropriately, sleeping enough, minimizing outside stress (maybe learning to meditate), etc. We build a process (a lifestyle that allows us to follow that program) that provides us an outcome. If we've already built that lifestyle, we don't need to constantly go back to how we need to focus on it or pat ourselves on our back for "accomplishing it again." It depends on where you're starting from. But you can still look at consistency - maybe I only hit 80% of my planned sessions. Why? What happened? Am I just a dirtbag that isn't committed enough, did something crazy happen, do I need to look at implementing something that will bring that 80% consistency up to 100%? Maybe Tuesday I stayed up late drinking and watching The Two Towers so when my alarm went off at 5AM to get up and train I hit the snooze and missed my session. Well, there's a couple process goals and skills we could implement right there so we can minimize missing a session because of that.

A perfectly implemented training plan can be sabotaged the day of the meet by food poisoning, or catching a bug during travel. If you are only focused on setting a new PR, you failed. If you focused on the training - you still succeeded, despite the setback. You balance a failure that maybe was outside your control with the success of training - and maybe that failure shows you what you need to work on next (e.g. you competed at NAGA and your opponent triangled you in the first 30s - well maybe even though you implemented your training plan perfectly, you now know a hole in your game you need to train up).

That probably was overly talkative. That coffee was strong. Hopefully it cleared some things up.

Well said. (And there’s nowt wrong with strong coffee…)

 

[WxHerk]

A perfectly implemented training plan can be sabotaged the day of the meet by food poisoning, or catching a bug during travel. If you are only focused on setting a new PR, you failed. If you focused on the training - you still succeeded, despite the setback. You balance a failure that maybe was outside your control with the success of training...

and if I may agree with you and add:

...but if you look back and see where you progressed before the "work stoppage," you may very well appreciate how you improved yourself during the process and restart. You'll likely restart a little higher up the mountain than before and almost certainly attaining or passing the original goal.

Been there!!!

 

[Antti]

When I read the OP I assumed @Adam R Mundorf is not working with a coach. My point was regarding self governance of training.
My point was that unless you have built a habit of regular exercise an outcome based approach may falter because you are not observing a result (e.g. being stronger) in the initial period.
For example Reload is based on 5x5 linear progression over five weeks followed by continued mass progression with a tapered volume for a further three weeks.
With or without a coach or trainer, if you can’t stick with this programme longer than three or four weeks you will, by definition of programme design, have failed to observedly get stronger. No PRs.
With Maslov, you can be approaching "self actualisation" but if there is a war and you lose your home and its security you have to refocus on solving this base necessity...
The analogy, which I admit is imperfect, was to state that without a belief in the process you will not reach the point of observing the outcome.
Or in a StrongFirst self-coached environment, S&S first teaches you the Process goal approach, then with its step loading teaches you the Outcome goal approach.
I don't see how programme hopping relates to a coached environment unless the coaches objective is to just randomly smoke the client to the point they can't move without discomfort for a few days.

Well sure, I'm sure some programs are better suited for developing habits than others. Some start slower than others. Maybe this part of the discussion is a bit out of my reach. I do see it mentioned often, maybe the mentions are for a different crowd.

I do not think that the only metric for strength development happens after the program and just once. Sure, it is convenient, but often lies.

 

[watchnerd]

However, even if I was in the second category, I would expect some quantifiable metrics for success. After all, why not?

Definitely -- I've had shared goals with weightlifting coaches to get my competition lifts up.

It would be weird not to.

 

[bluejeff]

There are some awesome thoughts going on in this thread!

agree that lots of people just want to feel that they have exercised. At times I'm even so bold as to call out a certain brand of very popular exercise. Great that they like it. But when it comes to the metrics, why do we have to be vague instead of getting some solid data?

I would expect everyone wants to see a solid drop on the scale when they want to lose weight. Why not the same when we get to strength or fitness? Why not make it measurable?

I was told by my boss when I was a group trainer: "people want to sweat and feel like they worked hard."

Thankfully,

a) I mostly taught handstand classes, so it was more about technique than "working hard." The process HAD to reflect the goal.

And b) I just sort of took things into my own hands when I taught a more "workout" oriented class by educating the class about load managment and RPE, etc.

What I found was that most students were far happier being told they didn't need to work to total exhaustion or puking or whatever to make gains, that they could train in a way that did NOT produce soreness and make gains. What this, I think/hope, allowed me to do was demonstrate that there was a process to acheive their goals, and that process was not just "show up, sweat a lot, get wrecked."

The GPP trainer has to deal with overcoming sedentary inertia, possible metabolic issues, lack of athletic proprioception and basic lifting mechanics, plus a huge dose of “trusting the process".

This a great point about getting those kinds of trainees to understand that there is even a process in the first place. That is, they kind of know that there will be a process, but like I wrote above, they often don't understand what that process is. The trainees still overcoming that sedentary inertia first need that habit of showing up consistently and developing new skills. The skill-acquisition is the process at that point. Once they've gotten past that sort of entry level GPP phase, they might actually have more definable goals other than "get fit, lose weight."

As per:

Just looking at process/outcome goals. They aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't achieve your outcome goals then your process goals are either insufficient or incorrect (or you were working with a very aggressive or unrealistic timeline). Process goals put the focus on what it takes to get to our desired outcome, and it sidesteps some of the potentially unhealthy mindsets that can come from be overly focused on the outcome. This process creates behavior change that allows you to reach the intended outcome by focusing on the process. A process goal gives you milestones to accomplish that are within your control.

That was a very well-written post, and this paragraph summed up a lot of great points in one shot. It reminds me a bit of that Carol Dweck book Mindset, about growth mindset vs fixed mindset.

 

[watchnerd]

I was told by my boss when I was a group trainer: "people want to sweat and feel like they worked hard."

Nearly a decade ago, before I got my own lifting platform, I used to train in an Equinox gym that had a lifting platform and was cheaper than using a CF box.

I wasn't there to use a personal trainer, but the membership came with a free consult, so why not.

The nicely smiling 24 year old asked me my goals (sport specific to weightlifting, but I steered him towards basic strength, accessories and mobility as he wasn't a WL coach), did an FMS screen, a Thomas test, and then said he'd write a custom program for me.

Day 1 of custom program, after doing the laziest warm up (go walk on the treadmill for 5 min to get a little warm), the first exercise on the list was:

Battle ropes

Me: "Why are we doing battle ropes?"
Him: "For conditioning."
Me: "Conditioning for what?"
Him: "Your sport."
Me: "In my sport I don't stand around in a crouch without moving my legs and wave my arms around for minutes at a time."
Him: "Well when you progress and get better at battle ropes, you move your legs around, too."
Me: "Okay, but why?"
Him: "To condition your arms and legs."
Me: "You play basketball, right? Did you get conditioned for basketball by doing battle ropes?"
Him: "No we did half court wind sprints -- run to mid court, turn around, sprint back and touch the wall."
Me; "Right. So if I'm training for weightlifting, why are we doing battle ropes?"
Him: "It doesn't matter what it is, as long as it makes you tired."
Me: "Huh....and if I get tired now on the first exercise, what are we going to do for the second exercise?"
Him: "Wall balls are next. That'll make you even more tired."

 

[Jeff Roark]

I know its the flagship program and all that, but I'd quit training altogether if I had to do S&S. It is what it is. I've done the getups and swings and just didn't get much of nothing from them. And before someone gives birth to a honey badger from me saying that, I did getups with a barbell with 120lbs, so I wasn't exactly a weakling at them.

To much time is wasted doing only these piddly exercises when you could do other things that will actually make you brute strong and put some muscle on you.

 

[Pete L]

I know its the flagship program and all that, but I'd quit training altogether if I had to do S&S. It is what it is. I've done the getups and swings and just didn't get much of nothing from them. And before someone gives birth to a honey badger from me saying that, I did getups with a barbell with 120lbs, so I wasn't exactly a weakling at them.

To much time is wasted doing only these piddly exercises when you could do other things that will actually make you brute strong and put some muscle on you.

So does that make you more Outcome Goal oriented
Do you like to programme hop or prefer to stick with a predefined course?

 

[Jeff Roark]

So does that make you more Outcome Goal oriented
Do you like to programme hop or prefer to stick with a predefined course?

I don't have a "program". I know what works for me and I do it. I don't have anything defined going into my workouts. I go in and take what I can get and move on with it. I understand that some people need the structure and something they can buy into, but I'm not that person.

 

[bluejeff]

I know its the flagship program and all that, but I'd quit training altogether if I had to do S&S. It is what it is. I've done the getups and swings and just didn't get much of nothing from them. And before someone gives birth to a honey badger from me saying that, I did getups with a barbell with 120lbs, so I wasn't exactly a weakling at them.

To much time is wasted doing only these piddly exercises when you could do other things that will actually make you brute strong and put some muscle on you.

This maybe deserves its own thread.... just the thought/question of whether just getting strong will help most things.

I think the ideas behind S&S have a lot of merit, but clearly the program isn't for everyone. I tried to do swings and getups for a while and honestly just got bored. I don't think it makes the program a poor program though. It checks a lot of boxes for the right people: it's low time investment, can build a training habit, gives a decent degree of conditioning, strength and mobility.

But if one has goals more specific, then it may not be a great fit. I still harbor goals of advanced calisthenics pressing moves, and getups are wasted time and energy for that goal. Now, to the question of just getting really strong.... being able to press bodyweight overhead would surely help with my goals.

There are a lot of interesting ideas coming out of this thread, and at the end of the day, I think many of us are really just finding different, or more or less elaborate ways to say, "is the program helping you reach your goals, if you have specific goals?"

 

[Antti]

Just looking at process/outcome goals. They aren't mutually exclusive. If you don't achieve your outcome goals then your process goals are either insufficient or incorrect (or you were working with a very aggressive or unrealistic timeline). Process goals put the focus on what it takes to get to our desired outcome, and it sidesteps some of the potentially unhealthy mindsets that can come from be overly focused on the outcome. This process creates behavior change that allows you to reach the intended outcome by focusing on the process. A process goal gives you milestones to accomplish that are within your control.

Strength training should have a specific outcome - getting stronger. Focusing on the process of training doesn't take that away, it shifts the focus. If the outcome is a 300lb bench press, then there is a process that you can implement that, when consistently implemented over a long enough time, will take you there. If our goal is to bench press 300lbs and our process involves doing a 50 burpee a day for a month challenge... Well you might hit all your process goals and steps and etc. and complete that challenge and be no closer to benching 300 than you were a month ago. Process goals still need to be directed.

I'm not trying to be coy here. A training plan (or program) is essentially a series of process goals. You need to train this many days a week. You need to squat this many days a week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight this week. You need to hit this many reps at this weight the next week. When you miss - how do you shift the plan? Is there a fixed end point (e.g. a competition) or is there a floating end point? Implementing a good training plan requires more than just writing it - scheduling training time, eating appropriately, sleeping enough, minimizing outside stress (maybe learning to meditate), etc. We build a process (a lifestyle that allows us to follow that program) that provides us an outcome. If we've already built that lifestyle, we don't need to constantly go back to how we need to focus on it or pat ourselves on our back for "accomplishing it again." It depends on where you're starting from. But you can still look at consistency - maybe I only hit 80% of my planned sessions. Why? What happened? Am I just a dirtbag that isn't committed enough, did something crazy happen, do I need to look at implementing something that will bring that 80% consistency up to 100%? Maybe Tuesday I stayed up late drinking and watching The Two Towers so when my alarm went off at 5AM to get up and train I hit the snooze and missed my session. Well, there's a couple process goals and skills we could implement right there so we can minimize missing a session because of that.

A perfectly implemented training plan can be sabotaged the day of the meet by food poisoning, or catching a bug during travel. If you are only focused on setting a new PR, you failed. If you focused on the training - you still succeeded, despite the setback. You balance a failure that maybe was outside your control with the success of training - and maybe that failure shows you what you need to work on next (e.g. you competed at NAGA and your opponent triangled you in the first 30s - well maybe even though you implemented your training plan perfectly, you now know a hole in your game you need to train up).

That probably was overly talkative. That coffee was strong. Hopefully it cleared some things up.

I'm not sure if we are discussing the same thing.

Absolutely, one should have goals both within the program and after it. Both performance goals. And we all have off days for whatever reasons so even more the reason to measure more often.

Like as a rough example, if you follow an AMRAP template akin 5/3/1, and meet the exact same rep maxes as you did in a previous cycle, can you realistically expect to do better after the cycle? Why wouldn't your strength development show during the program?

We need yardsticks all the time. However, I still stand by SMART goals instead of vague fluff.

 

[John K]

I'm not sure if we are discussing the same thing.

Absolutely, one should have goals both within the program and after it. Both performance goals. And we all have off days for whatever reasons so even more the reason to measure more often.

Like as a rough example, if you follow an AMRAP template akin 5/3/1, and meet the exact same rep maxes as you did in a previous cycle, can you realistically expect to do better after the cycle? Why wouldn't your strength development show during the program?

We need yardsticks all the time. However, I still stand by SMART goals instead of vague fluff.

Yeah, we might be talking past each other. Process goals aren't vague fluff, but are specific actions that help you reach your performance goal. The process goals can further be broken down into smaller specific actions that are done daily that enable you to achieve your process goal. So daily actions enable you to reach your process goal, your process goal enables you to reach your performance goal, and your performance goal maximizes your ability to achieve your outcome goal.

A lot of successful people create process goals and daily actions intuitively. I don't really think of "process goals" when it comes to training, as going to bed at a certain time and waking up a certain time have become ingrained parts of my life - but when someone starts out, a lot of those things need to be done explicitly. Someone might be great at intuitively managing these for some things (like training) and not for others (like eating). For something you struggle with, making it explicit and chunking it into baby steps helps build the skills and develop the habits similarly to what you did intuitively with something else.

 

[watchnerd]

I know its the flagship program and all that, but I'd quit training altogether if I had to do S&S. It is what it is. I've done the getups and swings and just didn't get much of nothing from them. And before someone gives birth to a honey badger from me saying that, I did getups with a barbell with 120lbs, so I wasn't exactly a weakling at them.

To much time is wasted doing only these piddly exercises when you could do other things that will actually make you brute strong and put some muscle on you.

S&S sometimes seems to get interpreted as if doing a minimalist program will get you maximum results.

Whereas the reality is closer to it being a minimum dose for mostly sedentary people to get off their butts.

Once they've made a durable habit of getting off their butts and no longer have the posture of a banana, they should probably move on to something more challenging than S&S.

 

[Antti]

Yeah, we might be talking past each other. Process goals aren't vague fluff, but are specific actions that help you reach your performance goal. The process goals can further be broken down into smaller specific actions that are done daily that enable you to achieve your process goal. So daily actions enable you to reach your process goal, your process goal enables you to reach your performance goal, and your performance goal maximizes your ability to achieve your outcome goal.

A lot of successful people create process goals and daily actions intuitively. I don't really think of "process goals" when it comes to training, as going to bed at a certain time and waking up a certain time have become ingrained parts of my life - but when someone starts out, a lot of those things need to be done explicitly. Someone might be great at intuitively managing these for some things (like training) and not for others (like eating). For something you struggle with, making it explicit and chunking it into baby steps helps build the skills and develop the habits similarly to what you did intuitively with something else.

I always talk about recovery. I think it's a clear term which helps people understand how things outside the gym influence their strength development. And in turn may make it more clear how it all also influences life in general.

But I'm talking about strength training.

Consider Andy, Tim, Diana and Becky talking about deadlifts. Becky wants to get a better deadlift and asks her friends how good their programs were. Andy says PTTP increased his deadlift from 315 to 405 in three months. Diana says Conjugate for beginners got hers from 225 to 275 in two months. Tim said that Starting Strength really taught him to go to bed in time, never later than 11 PM.

 

[Adachi]

they should probably move on to something more challenging than S&S.

Working towards Timed Sinister seems to be quite challenging.

 

[watchnerd]

I don't have a "program". I know what works for me and I do it. I don't have anything defined going into my workouts. I go in and take what I can get and move on with it. I understand that some people need the structure and something they can buy into, but I'm not that person.

When I'm not specifically training for competition, I'm pretty much the same.

But I think it takes several years of training consistently to get to that point of auto-regulation.

 

[watchnerd]

Working towards Timed Sinister seems to be quite challenging.

I would argue that just practicing TGUs and swings in order to achieve Timed Sinister is not the most effective way to achieve Timed Sinister.

If I had an average sized male as a client (I'm not a trainer, but I'll pretend) who could do Timeless Simple and told me they wanted to hit Timed Sinister, I would:

1. Reduce their TGU and swing practice to once or twice a week
2. Focus on strength and power training using tools other than KBs
3. Have them gain some mass via hypertrophy training (it's easier to lift big if you're bigger)

If I can get someone to a close grip 100 kg barbell floor press, 100 kg barbell lunge, 100 kg cleans, and a 100 kg push press, they've got a solid strength and power foundation to build on to practice Timed Sinister, and the incremental loading of the barbell is going to make the programming easier and the progression smoother.

Once they're strong and powerful enough, then you can 'competition prep' by increasing the TGU and swing frequency training and start working on time / conditioning.

Basically, pretty standard strength / power athlete off-season methodology.

 

[TimothyGander]

Becky wants to get a better deadlift and asks her friends how good their programs were. Andy says PTTP increased his deadlift from 315 to 405 in three months. Diana says Conjugate for beginners got hers from 225 to 275 in two months. Tim said that Starting Strength really taught him to go to bed in time, never later than 11 PM.

Tim's answer actually provides valuable information for Becky: all that SS is good for is drilling basics of training into beginners, that is, achieving process goals, and since she already has the habit of regular training and all that it entails, she shouldn't bother with it.

 

[Bauer]

However, I still stand by SMART goals instead of vague fluff.

To be honest, I am not a fan of SMART goals, mostly because of the T... Trying to get there at a specific time often gets people into trouble. Would Pavel Macek have achieved Timed Sinister faster by announcing a specific date? I doubt it. For the most part, he just focused on the process.

Trying to get there on time often leads people to ignore some signals like minor injuries, fatigue, etc. I have certainly been there.

The SMAR part can stay, fine by me

 

[Antti]

To be honest, I am not a fan of SMART goals, mostly because of the T... Trying to get there at a specific time often gets people into trouble. Would Pavel Macek have achieved Timed Sinister faster by announcing a specific date? I doubt it. For the most part, he just focused on the process.

Trying to get there on time often leads people to ignore some signals like minor injuries, fatigue, etc. I have certainly been there.

The SMAR part can stay, fine by me

I think the key of the T is accountability, making us sure we're on the right track. The T makes us evaluate our progress, and leads to making changes if required.

Or course, one can be overambitious when it comes to SMART goals. That doesn't make them bad.

One change caused by the timed evaluation can be a reassessment of the SMART goals.