Kettlebell SFG methods of forestalling sarcopenia? What do our board members over forty years of age do?

[GaryT]

I agree. I find strength training more sustainable and easier to recover from, which I assume becomes more challenging as you age.
How about two days a week of strength, then a third with a strength and hypertrophy focus?

Or simply focus on blocks of time or programs as many do here. Strength/power focus program/hypertrophic focus, etc.

Being an “older model terminator” in my 60’s, there’s a sentence in q/d I never forget that begins with, “In aging, there is a preferential loss of type 11 fibers; …”

The link I provided talks about power out the window first, then strength, etc just as in the book.

 

[watchnerd]

I agree. I find strength training more sustainable and easier to recover from, which I assume becomes more challenging as you age.
How about two days a week of strength, then a third with a strength and hypertrophy focus?

Remember that volume is one of the main drivers of hypertrophy.

 

[TimothyGander]

As far as I understand from a Pavel T article on his dad’s DL performance, if memory serves me well, he put his dad on to a Strength only program.

He has also mentioned having his dad do some training in >5 rep range, explaining that at his age some bodybuilding work is beneficial.

 

[Steve A]

Now that I've got 20+ years experience over 40, here is what I have learned and do:

1) Do the things that one would do if trying to maximize gains, even if new gains are difficult or non-existent. That means heavy leg and back work.

2) Do those things with an effort to make gains, even if new gains are difficult or non-existent. Observations are that those who decide to find easier lifts, or not push them as hard, lose both size and strength faster.

3) Do those things with adequate and appropriate dosing. That means load, volume, and frequency. Those have changed over time and I expect them to change going forward. I do know people who have started after 40 and their requirements are different than mine. No doubt somebody who has gained muscle readily will have different requirements. Gaining has never come easy for me, but just for illustration, here are requirements:

With 70% - 75% loads, 60 - 70 reps/week. If the days are varied, 12 - 15 reps is a minimum, maybe 30 reps is a practical maximum. With lighter loads 30 rep days are pretty much needed. With heavier loads I can use less volume, but frequency has to come down. The problem with this approach is that the older I get, the faster I detrain. But I still need to do some of the heavier, lower volume days, maybe 25% of my overall days or once every 3 - 4 weeks. When younger I wouldn't need such days at all.

Since the subject heading asks for SFG methods...how about SFL? I was lucky enough to guinea pig a PlanStrong program with a hypertrophy focus for a coach after the first seminar on this. It was in the top 5 of what I've tried post-40, and if it wasn't for some learning mistakes on both our ends might have been even better. (If anybody wants a guinea pig for the methods covered in the latest seminar, I'd be receptive.)

4) To continue to do the big stuff hard enough, I need to take regular deloads, even when I don't think they are needed. The best deload at this point for me is rather like Pavel's version of Easy Strength, but with the volume cut in half. So maybe 80% - 85% loads for 5 or 6 reps total. Or I can do the 70% - 75% for 12 - 15 reps mentioned above. I can do the younger me "week off or light loads," but then the next block of effort suffers - when a block is short, a week or more is a high percentage of it.

5) Increase protein intake. The rest of diet is details, we all have different health needs, conditioning needs, tastes. Just talking resisting sarcopenia here.

 

[WxHerk]

Excellent post @Steve A ; thank you!! I’m stealing and printing!!

 

[Ege]

He has also mentioned having his dad do some training in >5 rep range, explaining that at his age some bodybuilding work is beneficial.

Hi Tim;

Found the article. I think everyone on this thread should read. Pavel used higher reps w his father for some time. But it was not due to health concerns.

I understand @watchnerd and he is doing the right things for his goals.

For pure health reasons, my personal interpretation, any SF program is going to provide way more hypertrophy than minimum needed. And there are many hypertrophy programs here if you want to go beyond even if you want to compete drug free body building competition.

I am not as strong as I look (this has started to change since I have been practicing SF principles last few months). So personally my ambition and goal is strength and increasing my work capacity/ endurance. Hence S&S is best choice.

Be a Man Among Men: My Father's Deadlift Program | StrongFirst

We are all adults here. StrongFirst is not in the babysitting business. As they used to say in the Rhodesian army: “Be a man among men.”

www.strongfirst.com

 

[TedM]

Why not train for both?

Fair enough. I guess because I'm just starting out here and the challenges of S&S are fine for now. If all goes well, when I get to Timed Simple, then I'll open up to other / additional programs.

 

[Ege]

Now that I've got 20+ years experience over 40, here is what I have learned and do:

1) Do the things that one would do if trying to maximize gains, even if new gains are difficult or non-existent. That means heavy leg and back work.

2) Do those things with an effort to make gains, even if new gains are difficult or non-existent. Observations are that those who decide to find easier lifts, or not push them as hard, lose both size and strength faster.

3) Do those things with adequate and appropriate dosing. That means load, volume, and frequency. Those have changed over time and I expect them to change going forward. I do know people who have started after 40 and their requirements are different than mine. No doubt somebody who has gained muscle readily will have different requirements. Gaining has never come easy for me, but just for illustration, here are requirements:

With 70% - 75% loads, 60 - 70 reps/week. If the days are varied, 12 - 15 reps is a minimum, maybe 30 reps is a practical maximum. With lighter loads 30 rep days are pretty much needed. With heavier loads I can use less volume, but frequency has to come down. The problem with this approach is that the older I get, the faster I detrain. But I still need to do some of the heavier, lower volume days, maybe 25% of my overall days or once every 3 - 4 weeks. When younger I wouldn't need such days at all.

Since the subject heading asks for SFG methods...how about SFL? I was lucky enough to guinea pig a PlanStrong program with a hypertrophy focus for a coach after the first seminar on this. It was in the top 5 of what I've tried post-40, and if it wasn't for some learning mistakes on both our ends might have been even better. (If anybody wants a guinea pig for the methods covered in the latest seminar, I'd be receptive.)

4) To continue to do the big stuff hard enough, I need to take regular deloads, even when I don't think they are needed. The best deload at this point for me is rather like Pavel's version of Easy Strength, but with the volume cut in half. So maybe 80% - 85% loads for 5 or 6 reps total. Or I can do the 70% - 75% for 12 - 15 reps mentioned above. I can do the younger me "week off or light loads," but then the next block of effort suffers - when a block is short, a week or more is a high percentage of it.

5) Increase protein intake. The rest of diet is details, we all have different health needs, conditioning needs, tastes. Just talking resisting sarcopenia here.

Hi;

Thanks for the information. May I ask what is Pavel’s Easy strength? Are you referring to Dan John popularized one, which Dan says he learned from Pavel. Btw if I am not mistaken he said he tweaked Pavel’s recommendation. If I am not mistaken he said, Pavel originally suggested him 1 set of 5.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

And I believe I need some more light on this if you may.

 

[Ege]

Fair enough. I guess because I'm just starting out here and the challenges of S&S are fine for now. If all goes well, when I get to Timed Simple, then I'll open up to other / additional programs.

I echo this.

 

[renegadenate]

I echo this.

I disagree with this.

S&S is great, but why limit yourself to only two exercises when you can use S&S in addition to other training?

I've always used S&S in addition to three full-body workouts and made phenomenal progress in all areas.

At the very least, I would use S&S along with pull-ups, squats, and presses.

 

[Ege]

I disagree with this.

S&S is great, but why limit yourself to only two exercises when you can use S&S in addition to other training?

I've always used S&S in addition to three full-body workouts and made phenomenal progress in all areas.

At the very least, I would use S&S along with pull-ups, squats, and presses.

It is encouraging to hear this. I think someone’s tolerance might depend on many factors such as genetics, current life factors, the decisions you have given when you are younger etc.

If someone “feels” S&S is enough for them, I think it is okay.

BTW, I want to also share here my expectations from Swings and TGUs. I do honestly expect more carryover to real world than Squats, Pull ups and push ups (not presses because I have not exercised them) .

May be Deadlift is the king of carry over.

Push ups, pull ups, One leg squats made me stronger, looking very fit according to my age, but in real world scenarios I have embarrassingly recognized that I am not as strong.

Maybe Deadlifts, carries, and crawling would help to me I don’t know.

There is a very nice challenge from Aleks Salkin. The 9 minutes daily challenge, I think it comes at very minimal cost and can cover some areas on top of any program.

Any ideas are more than welcome.

 

[Pete L]

Remember that volume is one of the main drivers of hypertrophy.

What do you think is the minimum effective dose for a block length then? For hypertrophy to combat sarcopenia? 4 week Giant cycle, for example?
I was thinking in terms of avoiding excessive fatigue. Your sports are seasonal, I believe, so I can imagine a 8 or 13 week block may fit in nicely.

I also had some hypertrophy from the volume associated with the BJJ SF-KB LCCJ protocol. And that left me fresh based on two days per week.

 

[Ege]

What do you think is the minimum effective dose for a block length then? For hypertrophy to combat sarcopenia? 4 week Giant cycle, for example?
I was thinking in terms of avoiding excessive fatigue. Your sports are seasonal, I believe, so I can imagine a 8 or 13 week block may fit in nicely.

I also had some hypertrophy from the volume associated with the BJJ SF-KB LCCJ protocol. And that left me fresh based on two days per week.

Hi Pete, may I ask the goal of BJJ SF-KB LCCJ protocol? Is it endurance? Is it like S&S a mixture of all ? Which aspect was the dominant outcome in your opinion?

 

[Steve A]

Thanks for the information. May I ask what is Pavel’s Easy strength? Are you referring to Dan John popularized one, which Dan says he learned from Pavel. Btw if I am not mistaken he said he tweaked Pavel’s recommendation. If I am not mistaken he said, Pavel originally suggested him 1 set of 5.

Pavel's Easy Strength

1) 2 - 3 big lifts
2) 2 - 3 times per week
3) about 10 total reps
4) reps/set 1 -5, with 2 -3 reps best
6) 80% to 95% loads, stop sets with at least a rep or two in reserve
9) in sports season reduce volume by 1/3 to 1/2, can drop a day a week
5, 7, 8, 10) not specific to here and I'm lazy. But all this can be found in a chapter in the Easy Strength book.

The DJ 40 day workout is a 5 day a week, lower intensity program. Note that DJ has written to the effect of "run it once or twice per year, but the rest of the time do hypertrophy work." So it may be an acceptable alternative to Pavel's version for maintaining strength as a side to other stuff, neither of them would be anywhere near a top choice for hypertrophy or fighting sarcopenia.

 

[Ege]

Pavel's Easy Strength

1) 2 - 3 big lifts
2) 2 - 3 times per week
3) about 10 total reps
4) reps/set 1 -5, with 2 -3 reps best
6) 80% to 95% loads, stop sets with at least a rep or two in reserve
9) in sports season reduce volume by 1/3 to 1/2, can drop a day a week
5, 7, 8, 10) not specific to here and I'm lazy. But all this can be found in a chapter in the Easy Strength book.

The DJ 40 day workout is a 5 day a week, lower intensity program. Note that DJ has written to the effect of "run it once or twice per year, but the rest of the time do hypertrophy work." So it may be an acceptable alternative to Pavel's version for maintaining strength as a side to other stuff, neither of them would be anywhere near a top choice for hypertrophy or fighting sarcopenia.

Thanks a lot.

 

[Steve A]

It is encouraging to hear this. I think someone’s tolerance might depend on many factors such as genetics, current life factors, the decisions you have given when you are younger etc.

If someone “feels” S&S is enough for them, I think it is okay.

BTW, I want to also share here my expectations from Swings and TGUs. I do honestly expect more carryover to real world than Squats, Pull ups and push ups (not presses because I have not exercised them) .

May be Deadlift is the king of carry over.

Push ups, pull ups, One leg squats made me stronger, looking very fit according to my age, but in real world scenarios I have embarrassingly recognized that I am not as strong.

Maybe Deadlifts, carries, and crawling would help to me I don’t know.

There is a very nice challenge from Aleks Salkin. The 9 minutes daily challenge, I think it comes at very minimal cost and can cover some areas on top of any program.

Any ideas are more than welcome.

Tolerance can be gained and lost, just like muscle mass and strength. Certainly it will be lost later in life, I've lost some. But if one has not peaked their capabilities through years of training they should not assume their current tolerance is fixed.

To see carryover, at least on this topic, take a look at the opposite end. How do older people struggle?

Getting up and down off the toilet and chairs. Squat.
Picking up heavy things from the ground. Deadlift.
Lifting up anything overhead. Overhead pressing.
Carrying heavy items, grip strength. Farmer's walks, deadlifts.

For resisting the outcomes associated with sarcopenia, those are going to be the bang-for-the-buck things to do. Not saying those are the package for everybody's current life activities sporting and otherwise. Just sticking to the hazards associated with sarcopenia.

Now someone might add getting off the ground, with get ups as a response. I wouldn't disagree with that, but doubt that anybody who does the four above is going to have this concern. I also find it difficult to imagine not being able to do a program with the above and get ups included, unless very untrained, infirm, etc..

 

[Nate]

At 46, Im better than I was at 26. Do not go gentle into that good night....

 

[Ege]

Tolerance can be gained and lost, just like muscle mass and strength. Certainly it will be lost later in life, I've lost some. But if one has not peaked their capabilities through years of training they should not assume their current tolerance is fixed.

To see carryover, at least on this topic, take a look at the opposite end. How do older people struggle?

Getting up and down off the toilet and chairs. Squat.
Picking up heavy things from the ground. Deadlift.
Lifting up anything overhead. Overhead pressing.
Carrying heavy items, grip strength. Farmer's walks, deadlifts.

For resisting the outcomes associated with sarcopenia, those are going to be the bang-for-the-buck things to do. Not saying those are the package for everybody's current life activities sporting and otherwise. Just sticking to the hazards associated with sarcopenia.

Now someone might add getting off the ground, with get ups as a response. I wouldn't disagree with that, but doubt that anybody who does the four above is going to have this concern. I also find it difficult to imagine not being able to do a program with the above and get ups included, unless very untrained, infirm, etc..

I love this answer. I will keep this in mind for my programming. Seems that, my current selection is not bad, but needs a bit tuning. Good logic, thanks.

 

[North Coast Miller]

Remember that volume is one of the main drivers of hypertrophy.

What do you think is the minimum effective dose for a block length then? For hypertrophy to combat sarcopenia? 4 week Giant cycle, for example?
I was thinking in terms of avoiding excessive fatigue. Your sports are seasonal, I believe, so I can imagine a 8 or 13 week block may fit in nicely.

I also had some hypertrophy from the volume associated with the BJJ SF-KB LCCJ protocol. And that left me fresh based on two days per week.

Imma buck the general trend and say intensity of effort can be substituted for a lot of volume in folks that have a decent base of fitness. It still leads to accumulated fatigue - training in partially recovered state is a solid driver of hypertrophy, but it has to be managed too.

I’ll also throw this out even tho is s broken record coming from me - include some overcoming isometrics. They are a fast track way to preferentially recruit type II fibers and do real good things for an older athlete’s joints. One needn’t use them as extensively as I do, but once a week or a couple times per month.

 

[william bad butt]

Strength should be the base. If you are already strong, then focus hypertrophy